Goku, Trunks and Piccolo's power in the Android saga

Let's Go Fearless!

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
41,541
Age
25
GokhanDBZfan said:
Fearless Saiyajin said:
Kami, Tien and Yamcha's statements are dumb after Freeza Arc so using them as source will lead you to contradiction.
No, Kami's statement doesn't create any contradictions whatsoever.
Yamcha's statements, what little he has to say, also don't contradict anything.
Their statements are dumb like Tien when he saw Goku transform into SSJ against the Androids and he acted like he never saw it which was wrong since he already saw Goku turn into SSJ 3 years ago.

It reffers to Cell.
[/quote]
I can't find the quote on strength checker but here what Krilin said on Viz.
bdragon_ball_z_v015-070.jpg

Now it depends how you interpret ''thing's''. The most logical is things which refers to the Androids and Cell which never met them.
 

GokhanDBZfan

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
727
Fearless Saiyajin said:
Their statements are dumb like Tien when he saw Goku transform into SSJ against the Androids and he acted like he never saw it which was wrong since he already saw Goku turn into SSJ 3 years ago.
That doesn't invalidate Kami's statement though.

I can't find the quote on strength checker but here what Krilin said on Viz.
Now it depends how you interpret ''thing's''. The most logical is things which refers to the Androids and Cell which never met them.
It reffers to Cell, since he was the context of the conversation.
 

Let's Go Fearless!

Zeta Elite
25k
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
41,541
Age
25
GokhanDBZfan said:
Fearless Saiyajin said:
Their statements are dumb like Tien when he saw Goku transform into SSJ against the Androids and he acted like he never saw it which was wrong since he already saw Goku turn into SSJ 3 years ago.
That doesn't invalidate Kami's statement though.

I can't find the quote on strength checker but here what Krilin said on Viz.
bdragon_ball_z_v015-070.jpg

Now it depends how you interpret ''thing's''. The most logical is things which refers to the Androids and Cell which never met them.
It reffers to Cell, since he was the context of the conversation.
Kami statements doesn't exclude here considering the fact that everything is happening surpassed his expectations.

Even if it's Cell there are 3 Androids who are stronger than Freeza which contradicts the statement.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,646
@GokhanDBZfan

As I've mentioned in my previous post, he didn't expect them to be stronger than Trunks

No, he expected the Androids to be stronger than Trunks, as Trunks himself flat out stated this.

as he is surprised at the real androids' strength.

So? It only means the real Androids' strength surpass a power estimated to surpass Trunks: Present Androids > Androids (Piccolo's estimations) > Trunks (Mecha saga). Questions?

They all got killed by the androids in the timeline Trunks told them about, so it affects all of them.

Not quite. It's not because he said "we were suppossed to be killed" that he has to be including the humans. He could very well be including only himself and Vegeta, even more when he pondered the possibility of "them just growing too strong".

The emphasis of Piccolo's quote wasn't on whether they got too strong

They growing too strong was one of Piccolo's guess. For him to even consider this possibility, he'd have to be > Mecha saga Trunks.

he is just laying out the most basic explanation.

Piccolo pondered the reason as to why they've not been killed by the Androids yet. If the Androids are "too weak", then 20 isn't as strong as Trunks made out the Androids to be, and if Piccolo and the Saiyans are too strong, then 20 could be as strong as he's suppossed to be, but Piccolo surpass even that. If Green Man or Gero were any weaker than Freeza, there'd be only one answer: "They cannot be the real Androids".

he isn't actually pondering any possibilities.

Except he is.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...


If he's even considering/mentioning the 2nd possibility, it means it's true by a certain extent.

But if he had already expected the androids to be stronger than Trunks, then surely it wouldn't be a surprise to him.

Of course they would... again, Androids > Androids (Piccolo's estimations) > Trunks (Mecha saga). He probably expected the Androids to be above Trunks, but not by so much.

Again, the real androids' strength shouldn't surprise him then.

And again, it should.

It IS relevant, because it shows Piccolo didn't have any set level of power in mind for these androids.

Again, he didn't know exactly HOW stronger they were than Trunks, all he knew was that they would be stronger than Trunks, which is all that matters.

He had no reason to panic, as Goku was beating up Android 19 and the androids didn't even know what a Super Saiyan was.

He saw Goku transforming into SSJ and even so he was fine letting Goku fight. I don't think he would just let Goku fight if sick Goku was as "weak" as his Yardrat self, even more when it was made clear that Goku had to train in order to defeat these foes. Trunks' was surprised by Goku's strength, but it's not like he was expecting Goku to be able to beat them in his actual condition. Even knowing Goku would train his ass for three years Trunks still has only a bit of hope.
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,431
The whole bit about Piccolo being surprised about the Androids isn't really a big deal. Trunks was also just as surprised because these Androids were beyond what he faced. I don't really understand the Kami statement and how this affects Piccolo, either. It wouldn't even make sense to mention Piccolo there because the Super Saiyans are all ahead of him.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,646
Evil Vegeta said:
The whole bit about Piccolo being surprised about the Androids isn't really a big deal. Trunks was also just as surprised because these Androids were beyond what he faced. I don't really understand the Kami statement and how this affects Piccolo, either. It wouldn't even make sense to mention Piccolo there because the Super Saiyans are all ahead of him.

I think mentioning Piccolo there would be a bit redundant, right? There'd be no point in saying "even for the man who beat Freeza and even for you who can do the same thing, Piccolo" if Piccolo is weaker than Trunks.
 

Evil Vegeta

High Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
3,431
Yeah, it wouldn't make sense to mention Piccolo. He's standing right there and he obviously didn't take on Freeza and Cold.

The scene is just there to tell us that the Super Saiyans can't beat the Androids, so Kami will have to merge with Piccolo. There's no reason to assume it means Freeza>Piccolo because that's going out of context. Piccolo never fought Freeza, but that's not the same as saying he couldn't beat Freeza.

Trunks not gaining any power requires Goku to not be much different than he was 3 yrs before, and for Vegeta to not be much different than Yardrat Goku. If that were the case, then Piccolo saying Vegeta "might've surpassed Goku" is such a pointless statement. It's supposed to indicate that Vegeta could be the strongest now that he's a Super Saiyan, but why would that matter if Goku spent 3 yrs doing nothing to become better?
 

GokhanDBZfan

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
727
ahill1 said:
I think mentioning Piccolo there would be a bit redundant, right? There'd be no point in saying "even for the man who beat Freeza and even for you who can do the same thing, Piccolo" if Piccolo is weaker than Trunks.
Then he wouldn't even bring that feat up, if it wasn't there to hype up the androids.
Both Kami and Tenshinhan hype up Trunks' feat and power, while Piccolo is completely ignored for the rest of the saga until he fuses and only then he is treated as a SSJ powerhouse.
These kinds of blatant power comparison, are what really matters, not a character comparing the power of android in the middle of a fight, prophesized to have killed them, to a completely unrelated fighter like Freeza or Trunks, when the said android cannot even be sensed.

The Super Saiyan power is still treated as a big deal at the time, so for Piccolo, somebody supposedly stronger than ''Trunks arc.'' Super Saiyan Trunks(even though a power difference between the Trunks arc. and Android arc. Trunks it's completely unsupported), to be ignored after beating up Dr.Gero, while Trunks' power and feat of killing Freeza is brought up multiple times, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
The initial androids and Piccolo's power are also never brought up, while Trunks and Freeza are used as a measuring stick multiple times.

ahill1's post
I'll just say it this way:The characters don't think the way you do.
The ''we'' is repeated several times in that same context and it includes the likes of Gohan and Krillin.
Even if you want to ignore the context, there are multiple ways for Piccolo to expect the androids to be able to beat Trunks without actually being stronger than him, including absorbing his ki.
What was PIccolo supposed to do with sick Goku?He didn't even know, why is Goku even like that.

Yeah, it wouldn't make sense to mention Piccolo. He's standing right there and he obviously didn't take on Freeza and Cold.

The scene is just there to tell us that the Super Saiyans can't beat the Androids, so Kami will have to merge with Piccolo. There's no reason to assume it means Freeza>Piccolo because that's going out of context. Piccolo never fought Freeza, but that's not the same as saying he couldn't beat Freeza.

Trunks not gaining any power requires Goku to not be much different than he was 3 yrs before, and for Vegeta to not be much different than Yardrat Goku. If that were the case, then Piccolo saying Vegeta "might've surpassed Goku" is such a pointless statement. It's supposed to indicate that Vegeta could be the strongest now that he's a Super Saiyan, but why would that matter if Goku spent 3 yrs doing nothing to become better?
Like I've said above, for Piccolo to be completely ignored in the favor of Trunks and Freeza, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The scene is there to tell that, but a feat like that, if a huge power bloat like what you suggest was true, wouldn't be worth bringing up anymore, if even Piccolo could crush Freeza at that point.

It isn't a pointless statement, because Goku's Super Saiyan power is treated as their main key in defeating the androids, that much is made clear later on and Vegeta just went after the androids.
 

kriss-

Elite
Suspended
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
7,116
Age
29
Trunks gaining power isn't actually implied and it makes much more sense that he didn't, it is also makes Piccolo's gains more reasonable. Trunks was knocked out in two blows like Piccolo was, and the one blow that actually knocked him out didn't knock out a battle worn Vegeta. However, Goku and Vegeta did make massive increases and were capable of blowing Trunks away one more times then one.

People are assuming that Trunks is somewhere close to Goku/Vegeta based on some petty statement made by Tienshinhan whereas everything else suggests he didn't get much, if at all any stronger then he was several years ago.
 

GokhanDBZfan

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
727
Vegeta couldn't shrug off Trunks with his speed, so there you go.
A feat putting Trunks close to Vegeta.
He simply lasted longer, because he was never hit from behind by 17.
 

kriss-

Elite
Suspended
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
7,116
Age
29
GokhanDBZfan said:
Vegeta couldn't shrug off Trunks with his speed, so there you go.
A feat putting Trunks close to Vegeta.
He simply lasted longer, because he was never hit from behind by 17.
vdragon_ball_z_v013-167.jpg


Trunks was clearly trying harder to maintain Vegeta's pace whereas Vegeta was completely nonchalant. That and Trunks was able to keep up with a Super Saiyan while in his Base form. Speed doesn't correlate with strength either.

So your arguments are reaching at best.
 

kriss-

Elite
Suspended
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
7,116
Age
29
Oh and the humans got there first:

edragon_ball_z_v013-171.jpg


edragon_ball_z_v013-173.jpg


edragon_ball_z_v013-175.jpg


Keep reaching, lmao
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,646
@GokhanDBZfan

there are multiple ways for Piccolo to expect the androids to be able to beat Trunks without actually being stronger than him, including absorbing his ki.

What do you mean by this?
 

GokhanDBZfan

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
727
ahill1 said:
@GokhanDBZfan

there are multiple ways for Piccolo to expect the androids to be able to beat Trunks without actually being stronger than him, including absorbing his ki.

What do you mean by this?
They initialy started out weak, but got stronger than Trunks by absorbing ki.
 

ahill1

Super Elite
Donor
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
14,646
@GokhanDBZfan

They initialy started out weak, but got stronger than Trunks by absorbing ki.

Piccolo was talking about the current level of power 20 was displaying when fighting him, not how powerful he could potentially become.

It's not like Piccolo said: "Was it that you weren't as strong as we thought? Or you haven't absorbed enough power yet?"

If Piccolo was anywhere below Trunks, then he sure as hell couldn't have possibly grown too strong.
 

kriss-

Elite
Suspended
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
7,116
Age
29
I saw that part. Trunks had a hard time maintaining Vegeta's speed once he caught up to him while Vegeta was completely non-chalant.

Speed doesn't correlate to strength.

Once Trunks transforms he has no trouble maintaining the transformation.

rdragon_ball_z_v012-088.jpg

The feats paint an entirely different picture as well.

So your argument is reaching at best.
 

GokhanDBZfan

Mid Class Warrior
Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
727
I saw that part. Trunks had a hard time maintaining Vegeta's speed once he caught up to him while Vegeta was completely non-chalant.

Speed doesn't correlate to strength.

Once Trunks transforms he has no trouble maintaining the transformation.



The feats paint an entirely different picture as well.

So your argument is reaching at best.
Trunks isn't shown having a hard time maintaining his speed.


Why would he have trouble maintaining the transformation?He is gritting teeth in the top panels, because he is powering up and catching up with Vegeta, who wasn't completely non-chalant, as is shown on the previous page.

If Vegeta was much stronger than him, he would be able to shrug him off, but he couldn't and tells Trunks to p*ss off after failing to shrug him off.
 

Latest profile posts

I don't want to live anymore
Sovran Nila wrote on Pocket-Gog~'s profile.
Goo Goo Ga Ga!
Free Palestine 🇵🇸 Free Ukraine 🇺🇦
Top