If Gohan was SS1 against Dabra...

[ahill1]

I wouldn't say it was a retcon, but I do think AT kind of changed how Kaioshin perceives the powers around him. He even stated Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations, whereas he didn't show all that reaction to SSJ2 Gohan. AT might have had a change on how Kaioshin compares to the Saiyans imo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it was a plothole. Buu Arc is full of it.

 

[Future Warrior]

I wouldn't say it was a retcon, but I do think AT kind of changed how Kaioshin perceives the powers around him. He even stated Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations, whereas he didn't show all that reaction to SSJ2 Gohan. AT might have had a change on how Kaioshin compares to the Saiyans imo.

Shin had yet to witness what the Saiyans were truly capable of without undergoing the Super Saiyan transformation, so that may justify his reaction.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

I think it was a plothole. Buu Arc is full of it.

:bitch

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I wouldn't say it was a retcon, but I do think AT kind of changed how Kaioshin perceives the powers around him. He even stated Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations, whereas he didn't show all that reaction to SSJ2 Gohan. AT might have had a change on how Kaioshin compares to the Saiyans imo.

Shin had yet to witness what the Saiyans were truly capable of without undergoing the Super Saiyan transformation, so that may justify his reaction.

That's why I always assumed "they're this strong..." was referring to their Base.

 

[ahill1]

I wouldn't say it was a retcon, but I do think AT kind of changed how Kaioshin perceives the powers around him. He even stated Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations, whereas he didn't show all that reaction to SSJ2 Gohan. AT might have had a change on how Kaioshin compares to the Saiyans imo.

Shin had yet to witness what the Saiyans were truly capable of without undergoing the Super Saiyan transformation, so that may justify his reaction.

Well, like I said in the 1st post, Shin might be surprised because Vegeta could do that in base, I don't distegard this possibility. But meh, I think his statement could be better made in order to imply that though, like "even without transforming they are this strong". I think the "AT just changed the way Shin would react to the Saiyans" POV has also weight behind it. Or, Shin's sensing abilities were pretty shit to begin with and he had to see them in battle to properly grasp their strength. Dunno.

 

[Future Warrior]

I wouldn't say it was a retcon, but I do think AT kind of changed how Kaioshin perceives the powers around him. He even stated Vegeta surpassed all of his estimations, whereas he didn't show all that reaction to SSJ2 Gohan. AT might have had a change on how Kaioshin compares to the Saiyans imo.

Shin had yet to witness what the Saiyans were truly capable of without undergoing the Super Saiyan transformation, so that may justify his reaction.

Well, like I said in the 1st post, Shin might be surprised because Vegeta could do that in base, I don't distegard this possibility. But meh, I think his statement could be better made in order to imply that though, like "even without transforming they are this strong". I think the "AT just changed the way Shin would react to the Saiyans" POV has also weight behind it. Or, Shin's sensing abilities were pretty shit to begin with and he had to see them in battle to properly grasp their strength. Dunno.

So story-wise what is there for Gohan just being regular Super Saiyan against Dabra?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So story-wise what is there for Gohan just being regular Super Saiyan against Dabra?

Dabura and Babidi treating SSJ Majin Vegeta as a demigod, Dabura not getting energy from Gohan despite SSJ2 being able to harm each other easier as stated by Gohan, Gohan talking about SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta fighting like it's a foreign concept, Gohan saying he can manage something against Buu if he puts out his "True power" instead of his "Rage power" or whatever he calls it and Goku telling Gohan to get angry like against Cell. The last one falls apart if you consider Gohan having a rage boost @ Cell Games, though.
I may do a post about Gohan being a SSJ tomorrow or tuesday to explain better.

 

[SSJ2]

Retcon is the only logical thing.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ Gohan's Battle Ki > SSJ2 Gohan's standing still Ki is the only logical thing.

 

[SSJ2]

How does Vegeta know that he and Goku are stronger than Gohan prior to seeing him fight Dabra then? Makes no sense unless Gohan showed off his full ki.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What about Kaioshin mentioning SSJ2 Gohan afyer Yakon is killed? Retcon got retconed?

 

[SSJ2]

Right, you're getting the point. You have to pick and choose things in this situation, there is no absolute correct.

However the retcon makes more sense to me. Given how Kibito seemingly forgot about Gohan, I think the retcon is pretty fair.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gonna answer a few of these:

-When did Dabra and Bobbidi look at Vegeta as a "demigod"? Dabra just noticed Base Vegeta was pissed off and decided to use them against each other. That was the perfect plan because they could sit back and just watch.

-Gohan said "if only I could put out my true power", which already implies he isn't even sure if he can do such a thing. Gohan's dormant power has always been his "true power", so I doubt he'd ever refer to it as anything else. Kaioshin also parrots what Goku told Gohan when it looked like Boo had vanished. For all intents and purposes, "true power" should be referring to Gohan unleashing all of his dormant power through anger like it always has.

-In terms of Super Saiyan 2, Gohan said Goku was fighting at a level that "further surpassed Super Saiyan", and that great damage would come when two incredible powers like that clash. Sounds more like he's speaking on the specific levels clashing rather than Super Saiyan 2 in general. We already know Teen Gohan is a weakling in comparison.

-When looking at the Dabra fight, he's unable to do any damage at all. The most he did was destroy Gohan's uniform. You even have Bobbidi yelling at Dabra for failing to hurt Gohan. Goku and Vegeta are wailing on each other right from the jump. The battle with Dabra looked much different based on the few pages we saw it.

 

[Future Warrior]

 

[Future Warrior]

Gonna answer a few of these:

-When did Dabra and Bobbidi look at Vegeta as a "demigod"? Dabra just noticed Base Vegeta was pissed off and decided to use them against each other. That was the perfect plan because they could sit back and just watch.

Didn't he also hear Vegeta ranting about how Gohan has gotten so weak and was gonna end the fight himself, which would imply to Dabra that Vegeta > Gohan?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@EV Dabura called him the perfect fighter and was confident he would do a better job than him. Furthermore, Vegeta treated Dabura like trash and wasn't contradicted by Goku, who was surprised when Vegeta revealed he can turn SSJ2.

Goku says he needs to get enraged to beat everyone, while Gohan says he needs to go full power to rival Buu. Clearly are different things.

If they were SSJ2 tier Dabura blast would have wounded Gohan, unless Gohan is much stronger, what doesn't seem to be the case.

@FW isn't Daizenshuu 7 about anime? Daizenshuu 2 also lacks a + on SSJ2 Gohan's appearence, implying he was only SSJ2 on Vol. 37, whilst Gohan fought Dabura on Vol. 38.

 

[Future Warrior]

@FW isn't Daizenshuu 7 about anime? Daizenshuu 2 also lacks a + on SSJ2 Gohan's appearence, implying he was only SSJ2 on Vol. 37, whilst Gohan fought Dabura on Vol. 38.

Daizenshuu 7 is literally an encyclopedia for DB, so it talks about almost everything (mostly the manga based on what I've read so far). As for daiz 2 it doesn't really contradict daiz 7, in fact they go hand in hand.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Why it doesn't contradict? It says Gohan was only SSJ2 at the Budokai.
Also, when Gohan remembers Goku's advice he says "I'm not enraged like i was back then", not "I can't be the way i was back then" so Teen Gohan being unable to get enraged isn't really implied on the manga.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gonna answer a few of these:

-When did Dabra and Bobbidi look at Vegeta as a "demigod"? Dabra just noticed Base Vegeta was pissed off and decided to use them against each other. That was the perfect plan because they could sit back and just watch.

Didn't he also hear Vegeta ranting about how Gohan has gotten so weak and was gonna end the fight himself, which would imply to Dabra that Vegeta > Gohan?

Dabra wasn't shown to notice Vegeta's until he yelled out "I don't care about any of this!!"

@EV Dabura called him the perfect fighter and was confident he would do a better job than him. Furthermore, Vegeta treated Dabura like trash and wasn't contradicted by Goku, who was surprised when Vegeta revealed he can turn SSJ2.

Because they'd fight each other. This is what's stated. Unless you're going to say Base Vegeta is stronger than Dabra, there's no way he'd know Vegeta was stronger than him. Also, Vegeta treated Gohan like trash as well and Goku never said anything. Why? Because Goku doesn't care enough. He hasn't even seen Super Saiyan Vegeta at this point, either. It's literally just Vegeta's word.

Goku says he needs to get enraged to beat everyone, while Gohan says he needs to go full power to rival Buu. Clearly are different things.

That's not what's stated.

Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

Keyword: "if"

Goku: “Ah! Wait, Gohan. I have 2 more senzu; you should eat 1. You used up a lot of stamina earlier. [ ] Get angry, Gohan…Remember how you got angry and fought Cell, and draw out all of the power you have. If you do that, you won’t lose to anyone in the entire world! Not to anyone…

Keyword: "if"

Gohan says the situation isn't hopeless "if" he can unleash all of his true power. That alone means Gohan isn't even sure if he could bring out all of his power. The only thing that would logically be referring to is him getting angry enough to bring out all of his power. The situations aren't really different. Gohan isn't sure if he can bring out his true power, so he isn't simply referring to Super Saiyan 2.

If they were SSJ2 tier Dabura blast would have wounded Gohan, unless Gohan is much stronger, what doesn't seem to be the case.

They're bottom Super Saiyan 2 tier. That's why it did nothing to Gohan. Goku and Majin Vegeta are at the top of the Super Saiyan 2 tier. Or Dabra's fireball wasn't all that powerful in general.

All of Gohan's energy took Boo's meter close to half. Goku taking punches from Vegeta in minutes took it to full-power. That's a gigantic difference in power.