If Gohan was SS1 against Dabra...

Evil Vegeta

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The one in your post. Goku admitting he couldn't handle Boo was all explained by the fact that he never planned to use the form in the first place. He never had any intention to, so it's not really bad writing. It was simply a fact that had yet to be touched on.
 

ahill1

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Evil Vegeta said:
The one in your post. Goku admitting he couldn't handle Boo was all explained by the fact that he never planned to use the form in the first place. He never had any intention to, so it's not really bad writing. It was simply a fact that had yet to be touched on.
Do you mean Kenshi's post?
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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Future Warrior said:
Is he really though?

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I really don't understand the argument that since Gohan wasn't drawn with sparks in the same chapter where Goku/Vegeta had sparks means that Gohan certainly wasn't using the same form. Literally in the SAME fight, Toriyama forgot to draw sparks on Vegeta while having Goku remain with his sparks.

Gohan certainly isn't the only anomaly shown as a SS2 with no sparks for a LONG ass time.


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Go figure.

Gohan never had a single spark, sharp aura or lines on the eyes for even one damn panel. Vegeta and Goku missed a few times here and there.
There are many good points for Gohan being a SSJ2 against Dabura. Saying Toriyama was inconsistent with art of only one of three characters for some chapters isn't one of them.
 

Future Warrior

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ahill1 said:
He seemed angry at the beginning, then a bit uneasy after hearing they can be turned back to normal and then seemes pretty chill on the spaceship. What I am saying is that the angry towards Dabura turning them into stone was quickly suppressed by it being fixable whilst the anger felt at Videl's beatdown was still enough to make him transform into a ssj and be ready to stop Spopovich from hurting Videl. Although it was suppressed later, it's still something he felt for a longer time enough to be more easily warmed up by it, later, whereas the Dabura situation was quickly redeemable.

I strongly disagree with this. The difference in the state of condition between Videl and Kuririn and Piccolo is that one of them still has the possibility of never returning back to normal. Videl is already well and good, and nothing will change that. With Piccolo and Kuririn however, their survival still heavily depends on their efforts to bring them back. There is no reason for Gohan to still being warmed up from his anger at Spopobitch but not after Kuririn and Piccolo are turned to stone.

Even if the art wasn't his main concern, it doesn't explain why he'd suddenly not draw Gohan in the way he did at the Budokai... Toriyama stated that as the story progressed he begun putting less emphasis on the drawings than on the story itself, but that has not much bearing on the Gohan situation because he also detailed Goku and Vegeta's auras with consistent sparks a few chapters after Gohan's fight with Dabra and in the same moment Gohan was standing in front of Boo's egg.

Consistent? I don't know what manga your reading, but the Boo arc was far from consistent when it came to detail.

Toriyama's statement doesn't hold far from the truth. His art during the Saiyan-Freeza saga were much more consistent (and better) than it was during the Cell-Boo saga. The examples I showed in my previous post towards GS supports that.

The evidence can also be kind of explained to fit the art though. I don't deny that it'd make more sense for Gohan to be a ssj2 against Dabra, or for Goku to have compared Dabra to full power Perfect Cell... but it doesn't change the way Gohan was portrayed and it's perfectly fine to twikle some of those things to fit the way AT drawned Gohan.

I'll stick to EV's line of thinking. Drawn as a Super Saiyan, written as a Super Saiyan 2.
 

Evil Vegeta

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ahill1 said:
Evil Vegeta said:
The one in your post. Goku admitting he couldn't handle Boo was all explained by the fact that he never planned to use the form in the first place. He never had any intention to, so it's not really bad writing. It was simply a fact that had yet to be touched on.
Do you mean Kenshi's post?

When I saw the post, it was just empty.

Yes, that post.
 

Future Warrior

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ahill1 said:
But they generally reappear right after, right? I don't think it's comparable with Gohan, who doesn't have sparks at any single moment.

It's still a large portion of the fight. It's hardly not comparable to Gohan.
 

Future Warrior

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
Gohan never had a single spark, sharp aura or lines on the eyes for even one damn panel. Vegeta and Goku missed a few times here and there.
There are many good points for Gohan being a SSJ2 against Dabura. Saying Toriyama was inconsistent with art of only one of three characters for some chapters isn't one of them.

Vegeta was drawn with a SS1 aura during a large portion of his fight with Boo.
 

Evil Vegeta

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I think we can all agree that Gohan is definitely a Super Saiyan based on the drawing alone.
 

GreatSaiyaman123

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It does looks sharper than SSJ Kids Trunks aura a few pages latter, so yes. Sometimes it's missing the sparks or the flaming aura, but rarely both at same time.
But he does looks like a SSJ when he punches Goten and when he dodges Buu's blast before he grabs him, though.
 

Future Warrior

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GreatSaiyaman123 said:
It does looks sharper than SSJ Kids Trunks aura a few pages latter, so yes. Sometimes it's missing the sparks or the flaming aura, but rarely both at same time.
But he does looks like a SSJ when he punches Goten, though.

Mastered Super Saiyan is depicted the same way when powered up though...

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ahill1

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I strongly disagree with this. The difference in the state of condition between Videl and Kuririn and Piccolo is that one of them still has the possibility of never returning back to normal. Videl is already well and good, and nothing will change that. With Piccolo and Kuririn however, their survival still heavily depends on their efforts to bring them back. There is no reason for Gohan to still being warmed up from his anger at Spopobitch but not after Kuririn and Piccolo are turned to stone.
Fine if you disagree. I am not forcing this interpretation on you, but it's something that might work to explain Gohan showcasing different forms.

Gohan knows Piccolo and Kuririn depends upon Dabra's defeat to be turned back to normal. But the fact that he knows that won't just make him go into a frenzy... the urgency of the situation isn't a requirement for Gohan to go into a frenzy, he has to feel the anger and then cut loose. He knows very well it but still can't cut loose... unlike in the Cell Games (where there was a mental barrier preventing him from cutting loose), here he was just not angry enough.

He felt angry enough over Videl's beatdown to the point of even turning into a ssj, but with Piccolo and Kuririn it was quickly suppressed to the point it didn't 'warmed him up', since Kaioshin quickly suggested it was a fixable situation. That's how I see it.
Consistent? I don't know what manga your reading, but the Boo arc was far from consistent when it came to detail.
I think Toriyama was rather watchful regarding artworks details in the Boo saga, like depicting Boo-Piccolo (with the kids) and Boo-Piccolo (with no kids) in rather different ways, consistently showing Gohan with the fully outlined eyes even 10 years after Boo's defeat, and so on. The inconsistency you presented comes more from panels in which Vegeta specially wasn't drawn with an electric aura, whereas in one of those panels he wasn't even in 1st plane. He wasn't kept without auras for an entire period and somehow regained those characteristics after, unlike Gohan, who hadn't sparks for a single time. Now, the moments Majin Vegeta still had sparks:

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And that's enough... I even got tired of searching for the moments Vegeta had sparks oun his aura, which easily overshadow the "comparatively-few" moments he hadn't. So yeah,I think Toriyama was still being pretty consistent regarding aura-depiction, and a few panels of Vegeta with no sparks on his aura still doesn't compare to Gohan's situations.
I'll stick to EV's line of thinking. Drawn as a Super Saiyan, written as a Super Saiyan 2.
I agree with this line of thought. I just place more emphasis on what's drawn since it's more difficult to be an over-sight than compared to aspects of the story-telling, imo.

I also don't think there's a need to be going back and forth on this considering I am not stating "Gohan being a ssj1" is a fact and am merely adjusting my explanations to fit what we saw.
 

ahill1

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Evil Vegeta said:
I don't really understand the Boo example. We're later told that Goku didn't want to use the form because of time. That's not really comparable to this.
He just wished to show how shitty the story-telling is in the Boo arc, sometimes. Replace the Boo example with everyone thinking Gohan will stay dead even though he never died before.
 

ahill1

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Evil Vegeta said:
Lol, that Gohan part was really bad.

Yeah, everyone forgot he didn't die before. Because of roles in the story-telling like this I prefer to go with the artwork.
 
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