If Gohan was SS1 against Dabra...

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fair enough. It's just one of those things that can go either way.

Yeah, people have been discussing this even before forums existed.

I think it was because he was still contemplating on whether or not he should show Super Saiyan. Judging by how he asks Kibito if he should show SS2 later on, it appears that he hadn't made up his mind about going SS2 when the aura effect was going on. That was probably SS1 that he was concealing.

I find it weird that he's been powering up that much only for going SSJ. He already said something like "I have no choice" even before he started powering up. Him saying "Are you ready to se my SSJ2" sounds more like an catchphrase.

 

[Future Warrior]

I find it weird that he's been powering up that much only for going SSJ. He already said something like "I have no choice" even before he started powering up. Him saying "Are you ready to se my SSJ2" sounds more like an catchphrase.

He wasn't necessarily powering up per se, but keeping the form hidden before making the decision on whether he should transform or not.

He actually said ''should I show you a level beyond that of a Super Saiyan?'' or something of that nature.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It could've also took a lot of time because he hadn't accessed the form in awhile.

Goku took awhile to become Super Saiyan 3 and said he wasn't used to the form. Next time we see him transform, it's done instantly.

The lack of time to access the form just seems highly unlikely to me.

 

[ahill1]

I agree that the lack of time seems unlikely. If I had to explain why Gohan was a ssj2 in the Budokai but not against Dabura, I'd just say that the anger is still a pivotal catalyst for Gohan's ssj2, and even though he wasn't angry at Kibito's match, the anger he felt before kind of warmed him up to the transformation, which was lost after a while.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I agree that the lack of time seems unlikely. If I had to explain why Goku was a ssj2 in the Budokai but not against Dabura, I'd just say that the anger is still a pivotal catalyst for Gohan's ssj2, and even though he wasn't angry at Kibito's match, the anger he felt before kind of warmed him up to the transformation, which was lost after a while.

Goku never transformed at the Budokai neither foguth Dabura

 

[ahill1]

Oops, damn typo 2

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I can understand Gohan being pissed about Videl, but he was back to being jolly soon after:

Gohan looked pretty pissed when Dabra stoned Piccolo and Krillin:

Not as pissed as he was for Videl, but it was there.

We know Gohan was filled with anger before fighting Dabra again, but he just couldn't use it to be how he was back when he fought Cell. I think being angry like he was against Cell was the main thing that was lost. It makes sense for Goku to want Gohan to fight at his best, but if turning Super Saiyan 2 alone would've been sufficient enough, why does no one mention this at any point?

It kinda makes all of the dialogue look silly. Goku is urging Vegeta to chill because Gohan isn't "completely losing", even though he's not using his strongest form. Vegeta is annoyed that Gohan is so weak even though Gohan is purposely not using Super Saiyan 2. None of it makes sense.

I think the various hints to Gohan's anger (ie Vegeta saying they're superior to Gohan even though that can change if he gets mad, Goku saying he won't lose to anyone if he draws out his power through anger, etc) are there to tell us that Gohan is pretty weak to do anything without it. He fought what looked to be an equal battle with Dabra, but Dabra seems to think he can trash Gohan easily. We then see Gohan start thinking about Goku's words...as if that's what's necessary for him to defeat Dabra.

I've always been on/off both ends, but I think it makes less sense for Gohan to be a Super Saiyan.

 

[ahill1]

I didn't say he was angry against Kibito... I merely said the anger he felt before might kind of have warmed him up to the transformation, but such was lost after a while.

Gohan admittedly seemed angry when Kuririn and Piccolo were turned into stone... but I believe this anger was kind of dissipated after hearing from Kaioshin how there was a way to bring both back, a way that Goku considered pretty easily.

I think Gohan being a ssj1 makes more sense because that's the way he was drawn... and therefore I just try to make the story fit into that, even if my explanations might be a really off sometimes.

 

[Future Warrior]

Gohan admittedly seemed angry when Kuririn and Piccolo were turned into stone... but I believe this anger was kind of dissipated after hearing from Kaioshin how there was a way to bring both back, a way that Goku considered pretty easily.

If that's what you believe, then why aren't you willing to believe Gohan's anger dissipated after knowing Videl is back to full health again?

I think Gohan being a ssj1 makes more sense because that's the way he was drawn... and therefore I just try to make the story fit into that, even if my explanations might be a really off sometimes.

Spoiler

According to Mr. Toriyama, he held the story at a higher pedestal that the art itself.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Gohan being written as a Super Saiyan 2, but drawn as a Super Saiyan actually sounds a lot better after reading that.

Reading through it again, the only wild card Gohan has left is his anger. The way the story alludes to it gives the impression that he's not hiding Super Saiyan 2.

 

[ahill1]

If that's what you believe, then why aren't you willing to believe Gohan's anger dissipated after knowing Videl is back to full health again?

I believe it dissipated... but the previous anger was still enough to kind of unlock the ssj2 for a while. Like if he was still warmed up.

According to Mr. Toriyama, he held the story at a higher pedestal that the art itself.

He didn't seem to place a high emphasis on the story-telling on the Boo arc, where we even get the impression that two versions of Kaioshin existed. I trust his art more than I do his story-telling, at least concerning the Boo arc.

Dragon Ball is a visual media, so that's the primary aspect I'd consider when reading it. It'd make more sense for Vegeta to be, against Pui Pui, a ssj or ssj2 due to Kaioshin's reactions towards his power, whereas he showed to be rather indifferent to ssj2 Gohan at the Budokai, only remarking he's stronger than expected. Or Gotenks being a ssj2 against Super Boo since his headbutt could somehow stun him a little, someone who showed to be on par with ssj3 Gotenks. Doesn't change the fact that base Vegeta was clearly portrayed in base and Gotenks as a ssj. It's what we are seeing there.

 

[Future Warrior]

I believe it dissipated... but the previous anger was still enough to kind of unlock the ssj2 for a while. Like if he was still warmed up.

So you believe Gohan's anger during Videl's beating let him transform to a SS2 later on, but Gohan's anger at Dabra for turning his friends into stone didn't? I understand what you're trying to say, but the idea is shaky at best.

He didn't seem to place a high emphasis on the story-telling on the Boo arc, where we even get the impression that two versions of Kaioshin existed. I trust his art more than I do his story-telling, at least concerning the Boo arc.

Whether the story-telling itself was consistent is a separate issue on it's own. According to Mr. Toriyama his main focus was creating the story, the art was only secondary to him.

And the art in the boo arc wasn't ever consistent in the first place either.

Dragon Ball is a visual media, so that's the primary aspect I'd consider when reading it. It'd make more sense for Vegeta to be, against Pui Pui, a ssj or ssj2 due to Kaioshin's reactions towards his power, whereas he showed to be rather indifferent to ssj2 Gohan at the Budokai, only remarking he's stronger than expected. Or Gotenks being a ssj2 against Super Boo since his headbutt could somehow stun him a little, someone who showed to be on par with ssj3 Gotenks. Doesn't change the fact that base Vegeta was clearly portrayed in base and Gotenks as a ssj. It's what we are seeing there.

The points you brought up can easily be explained with logical thinking, the evidence for Gohan being a SS2 against Dabra is indisputable though. That's the difference.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Kaioshin says Gohan was superior to what was shown at the Budokai. So Gohan demonstrated greater power than his Super Saiyan 2 sometime after the Budokai.

The story tells us Gohan's only remaining wild card was his anger. It wasn't his Super Saiyan 2. If it was, Goku wouldn't have needed to urge Gohan to get angry like he did against Cell if "turn into what you were 30 mins ago and win easily" would've been necessary enough advice to get the job done.

The Daizenshuu and Super manga also go along with the logic that Dabra is someone that requires a Super Saiyan 2 to go against.

Yeah....I think I'm going to go with Gohan being a Super Saiyan 2. It makes more sense based on the writing alone.

 

[ahill1]

So you believe Gohan's anger during Videl's beating let him transform to a SS2 later on, but Gohan's anger at Dabra for turning his friends into stone didn't? I understand what you're trying to say, but the idea is shaky at best.

He seemed angry at the beginning, then a bit uneasy after hearing they can be turned back to normal and then seemes pretty chill on the spaceship. What I am saying is that the angry towards Dabura turning them into stone was quickly suppressed by it being fixable whilst the anger felt at Videl's beatdown was still enough to make him transform into a ssj and be ready to stop Spopovich from hurting Videl. Although it was suppressed later, it's still something he felt for a longer time enough to be more easily warmed up by it, later, whereas the Dabura situation was quickly redeemable.

Either that, or AT had a change of thought regarding Gohan being a ssj2 in the tournament and decided to kind of re-write it. Those are the explanations I can think of to 'fix' Gohan not being a ssj2 vs Dabra.

Whether the story-telling itself was consistent is a separate issue on it's own. According to Mr. Toriyama his main focus was creating the story, the art was only secondary to him.

Even if the art wasn't his main concern, it doesn't explain why he'd suddenly not draw Gohan in the way he did at the Budokai... Toriyama stated that as the story progressed he begun putting less emphasis on the drawings than on the story itself, but that has not much bearing on the Gohan situation because he also detailed Goku and Vegeta's auras with consistent sparks a few chapters after Gohan's fight with Dabra and in the same moment Gohan was standing in front of Boo's egg.

The points you brought up can easily be explained with logical thinking, the evidence for Gohan being a SS2 against Dabra is indisputable though. That's the difference.

The evidence can also be kind of explained to fit the art though. I don't deny that it'd make more sense for Gohan to be a ssj2 against Dabra, or for Goku to have compared Dabra to full power Perfect Cell... but it doesn't change the way Gohan was portrayed and it's perfectly fine to twikle some of those things to fit the way AT drawned Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Spoiler

According to Mr. Toriyama, he held the story at a higher pedestal that the art itself.

It doesn't mean he's going to be purposely inconsistent and not draw sparks and flaming aura to Gohan while he's drawing to Goku and Vegeta, though. Damn, SSJ Gohan has appeared for something like 7 chapters, sometimes on the same page as SSJ2s but is forgeting his aura and sparks? Unlikely.

 

[ahill1]

Kenshi nailed it down pretty nicely in a past topic imo:

So since I really want don't to make multi-paragraph posts anymore on this tangent, I'll just leave it off with this: Dragon Ball is a visual medium. The art shows all the sequences of the story with supplemental exposition through narration and dialogue. If the latter does not conclusively state Gohan used SSJ2, even though it'd make more sense for him to access his full power while in a deadlock, while the art conclusively shows the traits of a SSJ to a T, that's most likely Toriyama's intent. It doesn't make sense that a Goku who flew through snake road in a day and a half could be slow enough that he'd need to rely on his kintoun to get to the Saiyan fight, considering that it only displayed comparable speed to a weighted Piccolo a year ago, yet AT's art shows just that - he uses the Kintoun.

No matter how many holes I see in the story, the art is the main depiction of the story through which he encompasses it. Toriyama's intent was for Goku to fly on his shitty cloud that should be slower than Raditz, and in these particular chapters it was for Gohan to demonstrably use SSJ1. If there was a statement that established solidly that Gohan surpassed the Super Saiyan against Dabra, I'd give the suggestion that he was depicted with a level 1 aura to show he weakened some thought. But as it stands he had all the traits of a SSJ2 in the tournament and not here. Therefore, he is a SSJ which wouldn't make any less sense than Kaioshin shitting his pants at base Vegeta and PuiPui being considered higher than 3 guys who can fill up Boo's meter.

Shit, the way Goku says he's absolutely no match against fatty because his power was the same as Vegeta's makes no sense if he can stay in SSJ3 long enough to kill fat boo which he later confirmed (also note that this was before Goku realized the kids can fuse), does that mean SSJ3 was something he magically gained 3 chapters later? No, it's simply shitty storytelling that makes no sense.

 

[Future Warrior]

It doesn't mean he's going to be purposely inconsistent and not draw sparks and flaming aura to Gohan while he's drawing to Goku and Vegeta, though. Damn, SSJ Gohan has appeared for something like 7 chapters, sometimes on the same page as SSJ2s but is forgeting his aura and sparks? Unlikely.

Is he really though?

I really don't understand the argument that since Gohan wasn't drawn with sparks in the same chapter where Goku/Vegeta had sparks means that Gohan certainly wasn't using the same form. Literally in the SAME fight, Toriyama forgot to draw sparks on Vegeta while having Goku remain with his sparks.

Gohan certainly isn't the only anomaly shown as a SS2 with no sparks for a LONG ass time.

Spoiler

Go figure.

 

[ahill1]

It doesn't mean he's going to be purposely inconsistent and not draw sparks and flaming aura to Gohan while he's drawing to Goku and Vegeta, though. Damn, SSJ Gohan has appeared for something like 7 chapters, sometimes on the same page as SSJ2s but is forgeting his aura and sparks? Unlikely.

Is he really though?

I really don't understand the argument that since Gohan wasn't drawn with sparks in the same chapter where Goku/Vegeta had sparks means that Gohan certainly wasn't using the same form. Literally in the SAME fight, Toriyama forgot to draw sparks on Vegeta while having Goku remain with his sparks.

Gohan certainly isn't the only anomaly shown as a SS2 with no sparks for a LONG ass time.

Spoiler

Go figure.

But they generally reappear right after, right? I don't think it's comparable with Gohan, who doesn't have sparks at any single moment.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

If we're going by "Toriyama's intent", well:

Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Seems pretty clear that he's establishing Gohan as being far more powerful than what Kibito saw. The fact that we have two examples of Kaioshin telling Kibito (who saw Super Saiyan 2 Gohan up close) he couldn't comprehend Gohan's power because he wasn't around...proves it wasn't just a random statement. So AT's intent is that Gohan demonstrated far greater power than what he did at the Budokai.

I don't really understand the Boo example. We're later told that Goku didn't want to use the form because of time. That's not really comparable to this.

 

[ahill1]

I don't really understand the Boo example. We're later told that Goku didn't want to use the form because of time. That's not really comparable to this.

What Boo example?