Recent Chapter Discussion

[Future Warrior]

But sick Whitebeard with half of a head was still physically dominating Akainu

To be honest, Marineford power scaling was a mess in general. Commanders fighting equally with admirals, Doflamingo dominating Jozu, Crocodile vs Mihawk.

It’s hard to say what we can or can’t use.

 

[ahill1]

But sick Whitebeard with half of a head was still physically dominating Akainu

It's weird when we look at it because Whitebeard was having problems with Aokiji before, and even Akainu seemed dominant in the recent struggle they had before that final one. My guess is that Whitebeard's fit of rage allowed him to use his 100% in his old condition, the one regarded as the strongest men, momentarily, a level still beyond Kaido.

 

[SSJ2]

It's weird when we look at it because Whitebeard was having problems with Aokiji before, and even Akainu seemed dominant in the recent struggle they had before that final one. My guess is that Whitebeard's fit of rage allowed him to use his 100% in his old condition, the one regarded as the strongest men, momentarily, a level still beyond Kaido.

Seems pretty ridiculous without Haki though

 

[ahill1]

Seems pretty ridiculous without Haki though

What do you mean?

 

[Warmmedown]

Kizaru is fast. Akainu's a slow boy.

 

[SSJ2]

What do you mean?

WB couldn't even use Haoshoku at Marineford

 

[ahill1]

WB couldn't even use Haoshoku at Marineford

I think he couldn't use it at that moment to stop Ace's execution because he seemed exhausted at the time, maybe because of the tension of the situation too, I think. But as for using it in the attacks, I bet he used it. Ofc, Oda likely hadn't planned that kind of Haki by then and Haki wasn't even illustrated in any way during Marineford because the concept came later, how it'd manifest, etc. We didn't even see the darkening aspect of their body getting dark, much less the sprawls of a Haoshoku embued attack, but I bet they used the strongest available to them all the time.

 

[Future Warrior]

@ahill1

Some people say that Kaido was much more weakened than Luffy, that's why the latter beat him.

 

[ahill1]

@ahill1

Some people say that Kaido was much more weakened than Luffy, that's why the latter beat him.

He was already weakened yeah. But they made a point to show Luffy was weakened too, with Luffy stating so, even more when he had already been KO'd many times in the arc. He was freshier as G5 true, but... It's a similar situation with Doffy... he was already weakened when Luffy turned G4. But would the result have been different had him been not? Doubtful... since it wasn't stated and it'd kinda kill the hype of G4. Since Luffy was already giving Kaido a fun time and going head to head with him, needing the CP0 agent for Luffy to get KO'd, when both were already weskened, I think it's fair to assume the battle we had between Kaido and Joyboy Luffy was just how it'd have been normally. Kaido was kinda calling for his defeat and once he KO'd Luffy for the 2nd time, he said "yeah, you weren't joyboy either"... sort of implying Joyboy was the one strong enough to give the defeat Kaido wanted.

 

[SSJ2]

Lol Sanji got one shot by Saturn. The Gorosei are pretty well confirmed to be immortal as well.

 

[ahill1]

I'm not liking this arc tbh. It's the arc with the most revelations, with huge things happening like Luffy fighting Kizaru, Lucci appearing again and the Goroseis and the authority finally appearing, Vegapunk being shown... If I knew OP would be at this point when I was like, in 2015, I'd like to jump straight to this year... But it just seems underwhelming and not the same hype and intensity I expected for a conflict of that scale. May be because I've changed, like, but I think Oda is burnt out. He has already worked so hard, his health may be compromised after all those years... And it shows... in what should be big battles being depicted in a so quick and fast pacing way, like Garp vs Aokiji and the whole rescue of Koby arc, Luffy battling Kizaru being this puny thing, even Luffy vs Kaido, which at least Oda showed through many and many chapters, was kinda underwhelming to me. The last battle I felt was properly and well shown was Luffy vs Doflamingo, despite the pacing of Dressrosa being dragged out. Outside of it, too many things and new things happening, but at a too quick pacing. It may be a change of my perspective, but to me it seems like Oda can't make it as intense and epic as Marineford despite the scales and stakes being way bigger now. The period he was in before, freshier, with more ideas, made epic arcs whose stakes were lower than these ones, like CP9 and Marineford way more epic and memorable than the last two arcs or even Dressrosa, despite having liked the Luffy vs Dofla depiction. But it just isn't the same to me, that's a thing with long series, I think it's too hard to keep the same level of epicness and excitement for too long, both from a physical and mental tiredness and that the ideas and thoughts, creativity, gets limited after a while.

 

[Future Warrior]

But it just seems underwhelming and not the same hype and intensity I expected for a conflict of that scale.

This is the first arc of the final saga. I'll admit that I skimmed through most of the content here, but I don't think what we got so far is underwhelming in relation to the setup that Oda had created for Egghead from the start. If anything, nobody thought that characters like Kizaru or Saturn would show up, yet here we are.

If you expected Marineford level stakes in a precusser arc like this, I don't know what to tell you. There's no way Luffy vs Kizaru/Garp vs Aokiji was ever gonna be as drawn out as the Kaido fight.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah but the Kaido war was something already expected and told by Oda to be something greater in scales than Marineford, yet we hadn't it. Alabasta wasn't big in scales yet was a great and very solid arc in general, so I think it just comes down to the execution capping out and not having the same weight and power it had before. Kizaru vs Luffy could have been more epic too. We got unexpected things like you said, Kizaru appearing, and yet his battle with Luffy was that... Not memorable at all. Maybe we'll have something else between them moving forward, I dunno.

I think it may not simply be the length of the battle either. Shanks eradication of Kid was something quick, done in a chapter, but there I felt the weight and the impact. I think there should be more surprising and outstanding moments amidst the battles.

 

[Future Warrior]

Kizaru vs Luffy could have been more epic too. We got unexpected things like you said, Kizaru appearing, and yet his battle with Luffy was that... Not memorable at all. Maybe we'll have something else between them moving forward, I dunno.

I would have maybe preferred a different tone to Luffy vs Kizaru, but I don't believe the execution is left lacking. If anything, it's likely written to be that way by design. The original perception was that Kizaru was gonna be the final boss of the arc, but the twist is that it's actually Saturn who's the main threat here. It's just plot progression.

I agree with your take on Wano, which is why I didn't address it.

 

[sei'taer]

So is Luffy = Kizaru a safe bet?

I mean Kizaru can't move after the fight, where as Luffy can't move because of the time limit.

It feels Gear 5 > Kizaru pretty easily.

 

[SSJ2]

I definitely wouldn’t say easily. Luffy had to go to his absolute limit to draw with him.

 

[ahill1]

I would have maybe preferred a different tone to Luffy vs Kizaru, but I don't believe the execution is left lacking. If anything, it's likely written to be that way by design. The original perception was that Kizaru was gonna be the final boss of the arc, but the twist is that it's actually Saturn who's the main threat here. It's just plot progression.

I agree with your take on Wano, which is why I didn't address it.

True, but Kizaru is still a big character, with a great emotional value not just for being an admiral, but by their whole encounter on Sabaody which exposed how weak the crew was for the new world. That was their chance to finally prove all their progress in those 2 years, against the very Kizaru, with the way Luffy opposed Frank's expectations of running away because it was an admiral and Luffy already charging at him... I think it was deserving of a bigger shown up fight impact, whether Kizaru was the main villain or not. We barely even saw how Luffy kicked him, the visuals seemed a little off to me at least and it hadn't all that impact of incapacitating an admiral.

I think part of this may come from the way Joyboy Luffy acts as well, always laughing and playing and making those exaggerated expressions when the situation is wary, which I understand since the character and legend of joyboy matches up that, but may end up being a contributor to undermining the seriousness of a match some times, so I'm not much of a fan of that either.

 

[ahill1]

I definitely wouldn’t say easily. Luffy had to go to his absolute limit to draw with him.

Like Luffy vs Doflamingo in G4 maybe. Luffy defeated Doflamingo but had to be entertained by the others to buy time. Weren't time a factor, he'd win decisively. Though Doflamingo's awakening seemed to be giving Luffy a hard time, but not in seriously damaging him, more like finding the opening to hit Doflamingo... Would you say G4 > Doflamingo, or even because it took Luffy to his limits to defeat him?

Idk, this battle may be different tho because iirc Kizaru fought back and traded some attacks with Luffy evening it out for a while... But Kizaru also ran away to kill Vegapunk, which could be said that, to follow Kizaru that quickly, added to Luffy wasting all his energy. So there may be a similar pattern now, thinking again... Doflamingo was avoiding being hit with his awakening and giving Luffy a hard time in finding the opening. Kizaru fought back for a while but then went as fast as possible and was defeated with a strong attack, although Luffy was drained. It's possible much like Doffy, Luffy is noticeably above in power alone, not just above to overcome the exhausting limits the form poses.

 

[ahill1]

Looking back at the fight, I'd say Kaido is still above Kizaru. Luffy had fell from G5 once but he came back with sheer will of protecting the island. Later, he laid out an attack kinda similar to what he did to Kizaru, but Kaido still didn't stop by then:



He still kept fighting and landing a lot of hits and he witnessed more hits from Luffy as well besides this one. And the final attack used to defeat Kaido was just more impressive, being kinda the until then ultimate finish from Luffy:



Luffy needed to struggle a lot and Kaido put a lot of resistance against this more powerful attack.



The clash was intense too. Luffy didn't show this level of intensity vs Kizaru. It could be that most of the fight was off screen and we didn't see, but at least we have Kaido still fighting depite all the damage he had taken upon having his face crossed by Luffy like Kizaru and earlier damages...

For some reason Luffy seemed to tire quicker vs Kizaru. Either because like I said most of the fight was off screen, or because he had used G5 once when he was whooping Lucci's ass needlessly with it... Or because Luffy was shouldering, at least as he felt, a bigger responsibility vs Kaido and that was all or nothing, as we can see he had withered from the state once before but came back, much like Doflamingo, his sheer will power in protecting the island added him keeping it longer than usual.

So yeah, I'd say overall, Kaido is still stronger than Kizaru, who took less tricks overall from G5 Luffy and was down once the not strongest or finisher attack hit well. Though he's still within a respectable range from Kaido and Joyboy Luffy to keep up trading blows with both panting and for Luffy to be exhausted at the end. I'd say JoyBoy Luffy and Kaido are on tier 7 and Kizaru is still on tier 6.

Weirdly enough tho, Kizaru seemed to be dealing way easier than Kaido with Haoshoku G4 Luffy, kicking him all the way through the island, while Kaido seemed to be having an almost even fight, that's definitely weird. Maybe Kaido was still holding back somewhat, which is the only logical thinking to me.

 

[Future Warrior]

We barely even saw how Luffy kicked him, the visuals seemed a little off to me at least and it hadn't all that impact of incapacitating an admiral.

Because he doesn't want to put out all the stops for an intense Kizaru fight that isn't meant to be his last showing. He's still gonna a threat in the final war to be saved for a matchup against Zoro or Sanji.

Oda wants to escalate the intensity of this arc naturally. Saturn's introduction would be a bit less impactful if we were already getting a high stakes Luffy vs Kizaru showdown. And when you take into account that he still has future plans for Kizaru (in fact, Saturn is the one that will probably die), it's no wonder he wrote the fight the way he did.