Warm up Goku vs Cell

[ahill1]

There's not too much to add here for either side, honestly. I think it comes down to preference, honestly.

 

[p123]

I disagree strongly. Is Goku's 50% power not mistaken for his full power?

 

[ahill1]

Before Goku's conversation with post RoSaT Kamiccolo, do they expect Cell to have more power than what he showed against Vegeta and Trunks?

 

[Victorious]

Expectations For Future Trunks

pre Kamiccolo & Goku coversaton

Kamiccolo post RoSaT (weighted) : 45
50% Goku : 50
Future Trunks expectations for Goku : 50
Future Trunks expectations for Cell : 55


post Kamiccolo & Goku coversaton

Kamiccolo post RoSaT (weighted) : 45
50% Goku : 50
Future Trunks expectations for Goku : 75 ?
Future Trunks expectations for Cell : 80 ?


@ Cell Games

Kamiccolo post RoSaT (weighted) : 45
50% Goku : 50
Future Trunks expectations for Goku : 75 ?
Future Trunks expectations for Cell : 80 ?
Future Trunks : 64



Expectations For Vegeta

@ Cell Games

Kamiccolo post RoSaT (weighted) : 45
50% Goku : 50
Vegeta's expectations for Goku : 50
Vegeta's expectations for Cell : 55
Vegeta post RoSaT II : 66


Real deal

Kamiccolo post RoSaT (weighted) : 45
50% Goku : 50
Kamiccolo full power : 55
Future Trunks : 64
Vegeta : 66
100% Goku : 100
Cell vs Goku : 110

 

[ahill1]

Future Trunks expectations for Goku : 75 ?
Future Trunks expectations for Cell : 80 ?

Vegeta's expectations for Goku : 50
Vegeta's expectations for Cell : 55

That's due Vegeta showing confidence going up against Cell, while Trunks still treats Goku as a bigger deal, saying "so we are really starting with you, Goku?" ?

Vegeta most likely also knew Goku's 50% wasn't his full power, since before Goku and Cell's fight he said "show me what you can do Kakarrot", kind of like he said to Goku in the Boo arc, when he knew Goku's burst wasn't his full power:

 

[Victorious]

Before Goku's conversation with post RoSaT Kamiccolo, does them expect Cell to have more power than what he showed against Vegeta and Trunks?

They do...but only especially after Goku told them ["there's no telling how strong he might be when he really gets going] when he visited Cell in the ring. Keep in mind this is before Goku powered up to 50% power for Karin.

There are several expected levels for Cell's power before they fight him at the Cell Games.

1st aka the minimum- the warm up power he tooled Vegeta and Trunks in[/b]. - Ok everyone knows he's at least this power. since he fought in it. Of course my guess is once the fight was over Vegeta/Trunks/Kamiccolo etc realize this is not his full power though..since Cell flat out says he's just warming up like a cocky asshole several times during his fight with Vegeta..not to mention no intensity or aura in his fights with them.

2nd - "There's no telling how strong he can be when he gets going, i doubt I can beat him" - This we know is a lot stronger than Cell's warm up power. Since Trunks was like "I was afraid he could be that strong"..aka they know Cell has way more in the tank than we he showed in his fight with Vegeta and Future Trunks. Goku then precedes to power up for Karin, Godsmacks them.

So now the chain is Cell [expected ] > 50% Goku >>> warm up Cell = warm up Goku.

Now if 50% Goku = warm up Cell..would they not immediately say that Goku is going to get killed? Since they know Cell can get way stronger? Or do they at least have faith in Goku to put up a fight?

3rd and final Once Kamiccolo exits the RoSaT Trunks gets very nervous at the thought of Kamiccolo being total fodder. This puts the chain like this

Cell expected > Goku expected full power >>> 50% Goku > Kamiccolo post RoSaT.

So the reasoning is simple. How do we know that 50% Goku and warm up Goku are not the same? Because when Goku had that conversation with Kamiccolo ["Kamiccolo you're fodder, can you demerge with Kami so we can make a dragon?"] Trunks was already expecting Cell to be much stronger than the initial power Cell tooled Vegeta and Trunks with. And then Trunks is then getting very nervous at the thought of Kamiccolo being fodder..which then puts Cell's expected power even that much higher.


If Trunks didnt think 50% Goku was full power Goku, then there's no reason to be afraid of Kamiccolo being fodder to Cell.

 

[ahill1]

They do...but only especially after Goku told them ["there's no telling how strong he might be when he really gets going] when he visited Cell in the ring. Keep in mind this is before Goku powered up to 50% power for Karin.

I think that could be explained by Cell being at the level he was initially, before doing that silent power up against Vegeta. The initial level to which #16 states Vegeta is still superior in everything:

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4
No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!”
Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.”
Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.”


Since nobody but Kuririn [who had been kicked] could tell how much more powerful Cell could get, then it stands a reason Goku could only make guesses.

Of course my guess is once the fight was over Vegeta/Trunks/Kamiccolo etc realize this is not his full power though..since Cell flat out says he's just warming up

In reality, what Cell defined as "warm up" was the level he was using initially against Vegeta, the one who #16 read initially and stated was < Vegeta.

This is the level defined as "warm up". The level in which he tooled Vegeta was the one defined as "serious Cell":

This we know is a lot stronger than Cell's warm up power. Since Trunks was like "I was afraid he could be that strong"

That was a Viz error. That's what is said, in reality:

That's direct from the Orange Bricks, translated by Steve Simmons. Trunks only questioned Goku's words, the "Is that strong?" was something Viz added up.

Now if 50% Goku = warm up Cell..would they not immediately say that Goku is going to get killed? Since they know Cell can get way stronger? Or do they at least have faith in Goku to put up a fight?

I think the idea of 50% = warm up Goku holds water due to it being still in the same realm of warm up Cell. Goku flat out stated he can't exactly tell how strong Cell would become if he gets down to business and that he won't know until he tries, that is, it's all guesswork. If Goku's level showcased at Karin blows warm up Cell out of the damn water, then I'd sure expect them at least questioning Goku's word, since it didn't pass from a guess in Goku's part, to begin with.


I agree with your "Trunks is surprised with Kamiccolo being fodder" though. That's where I think the idea of Trunks expecting Goku being still the top dog, despite being > 50%, comes from. I also think Vegeta realized it, since his line right before Goku fighting implies it, but he is still confident nevertheless, since he surpassed the power Goku showed at Karin, that is, he overcomed the minimum requirement to show confidence, kind of like Piccolo showed confidence going up against the androids, since he surpassed Yardrat Goku and Mecha Trunks, but still had a bad gut feeling or so.

 

[p123]

Good stuff ahill. Ssj2 when you are done taking drugs add that to difficult characters guidelines opening post please sir!

 

[Victorious]

Didnt Goku say though "There's no telling how strong he'd be if he really gets going"...or something to that degree after he met Cell in the ring..Which means Goku is telling everyone Cell [expected] >>> Cell [warming up].

Goku then powers up to 50% and godsmacks them.

So the point is..if 50% Goku power was equal to warm up Cell..then wouldnt they expect Cell to completely stomp Goku since Goku already said "there's not telling how strong he'd be if he really felt like getting down to business.

So it makes a lot more sense with Kamiccolo/Future Trunks and Vegeta to have this view

Cell [really gets going] > 50% Goku >>> warm up Cell = warm up Goku

rather than

Cell [really gets going] = warm up Cell > 50% Goku = warm up Goku?

Now how does that add up? It doesnt. Not to mention that warm up Goku fought dead even with warm up Cell. Where as 50% Goku should at least be marginally weaker than whatever power they expect Cell to have.

If Goku's level showcased at Karin blows warm up Cell out of the damn water, then I'd sure expect them at least questioning Goku's word,

Actually the orange bricks Future Trunks says after Goku powers up that Goku just may have a chance.

 

[p123]

Yep...

 

[SSJ2]

Good stuff ahill. Ssj2 when you are done taking drugs add that to difficult characters guidelines opening post please sir!

Which one specifically? And what was the one you wanted yesterday, the Voice of Faggot post?

 

[Victorious]

BTW...Japanese anime is no more credible than Viz manga. It's not like it's fanslations shit or something....... Both are official translations.

I wonder if Herms has that convo from Goku translated?

 

[p123]

The one where you had the picture of Trunks Japanese anime stuff.

Vic, I think Jap anime > Viz personally. Steve Simmons is one of the best translators from what I know regarding DB. If I can, I always like to use Herms, Japanese Anime and Viz to get the best picture. Sometimes I prefer Viz for their translation of the situation more than their word for word.

 

[ahill1]

Didnt Goku say though "There's no telling how strong he'd be if he really gets going"...or something to that degree after he met Cell in the ring..Which means Goku is telling everyone Cell [expected] >>> Cell [warming up].

But Cell showed two levels against Super Vegeta. The one to which Vegeta was still confident to beat and to which #16 said Vegeta was better in every way. And the one that tooled Super Vegeta and tanked his kick to the neck.

Cell could very well be at his initial level when Goku went to see him, no? If so, then Goku's line could only mean Cell (vs Vegeta and Trunks, serious) >>> Cell (initial, still < Super Vegeta).

So the point is..if 50% Goku power was equal to warm up Cell..then wouldnt they expect Cell to completely stomp Goku since Goku already said "there's not telling how strong he'd be if he really felt like getting down to business.

Well, not if Goku's comment was directed at initial Cell and they still didn't know Cell had a level past the one who stomped Super Vegeta.

But if they somewhat realized Cell (real power) >>> Cell (vs vegeta and trunks) = 50% Goku, then maybe that was the reason to why they somewhat realized Goku was hiding more power, no?

Well, I just think somewhat silly they realizing Goku 50% wasn't his full if that power already was enough to stomp everyone prior to that.

Actually the orange bricks Future Trunks says after Goku powers up that Goku just may have a chance

Yeah, but I am sure that line wasn't in the manga.

 

[Victorious]

I would like to see anyone post numbers for the following characters with having 50% Goku, warm up Goku, and warm Up Cell all equal.

Kamiccolo post RoSaT
50% Goku
warm up Goku
warm up Cell
Cell expected [post Goku conversation with Z Senshi and 50% power up]
Cell expected [post Goku conversation with post RoSaT Kamiccolo]

 

[p123]

Tell me the purpose of the author in having Goku declare that the initial power was what he was talking about? That's complete suckiness from a story standpoint.

2nd, Cell's initial power is called a ruse, fake ki, etc. His true initial power is what godsmacked Vegeta. I understand the need to play devil's advocate at times, but it shouldn't dominate the narrative.

I was always surprised Jack never bought into this theory Vic, this theory seems spot on, not even difficult to see imo.

 

[Victorious]

Well I don't think Cell was at the fake ki level output [when #16 said Vegeta was still better in every way] when Goku went to see him in the ring, that's ridiculous. Goku already knows Super Vegeta got wrecked anyway. That makes no sense.

BTW, Cell never actually FOUGHT at that fake ki level output. He toyed with Vegeta the whole time..then when he decided to actually let Vegeta in on just how big their gap was, he allowed Vegeta's full force kick to hit him..just to tank it and intimidate him. Cell's fight with Vegeta is just him fucking around with Vegeta. Even at this casual 'warm up' level where he has no aura..he's still like 2x Super Vegeta.

 

[p123]

Agreed Vic. Damn so good to have you back, I can't do all the ass kicking by myself. Woo, got my boy back!

 

[p123]

 

[Victorious]

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