Who made the bigger fusion gain: Merged Zamasu or Kibitoshin?

[Papasmurf]

I think the fact that 1st form Freeza > out of shape SSJ Gohan and that 4th form ToP Freeza (who did mental training since then) is weaker than ToP SSJs means anybody relevant is making Boo arc look like shit. Base Gohan in the FnF movie was called the strongest among the Z Senshi who fought Freeza's soldiers too, and judging by Toyotaro doing art of Shisami, Sorbet and Freeza in Hell like they were the only big players, I would wager the manga version of the arc went a lot more like the movie than the anime. We can agree to disagree though. With Toyotaro's inconsistent writing, who knows what he thinks is the answer.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm not disregarding any of that. I just think the narrative sometimes goes against that when we have people panicking over Fat Boo not being able to contend in either tournament as if he's a major player.

I wonder if Toyotaro changed RoF in some ways, but I doubt we'll ever know.

 

[Papasmurf]

Wasn't it stated that Fat Boo's healing ability should be useful for replacing Senzus in the ToP?

Plus, the only individuals who seem to be solidly above Fatty would be Galu, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and #17 (whose power most of them hadn't even seen in action yet). That's only half their roster. The rest of the team consists of #18 and earthling fodder except MUI Roshi, so compared to them Fatty is a godsend.

 

[Future Warrior]

Sure, but that doesn't explain the U6 arc.

 

[Papasmurf]

Back then they literally had no one stronger than Fatty except the three that actually participated in the tournament (seeing as #17 was still an unknown power and Gohan was... well, apparently even weaker than in FnF judging by him not even showing due to the conference he attended).

 

[Future Warrior]

That doesn't seem justified to me to have such an overblown reaction. I doubt they would act like that if Piccolo was disqualified (who btw, literally 0 comment of any power-up while holding his ground against a weakened Frost).

 

[Papasmurf]

We can easily infer Piccolo had a humongous power boost if Frost can halfway hold his own against SSJ Goku while fresh (and ToP Freeza without Golden form lost to SSJ Caulifla). In the FnF arc Piccolo couldn't even hold a candle to 1st form Freeza.

It's just bad writing, but not something we can't make sense of based on the series of feats we're seeing constantly in base and SSJ tier in Super arcs. We also see nobody making a note of Roshi's power up, and he can't still be weaker than 45% Old Daimao, pseudo-UI or not.

 

[Future Warrior]

Toyotaro usually does note if a character makes a major power-up, such as the case with Piccolo himself during the Moro by having Goku say he barely recognizes him. It's possible Roshi is a lot stronger, but if he was anywhere near Base Goku then something would have been said. Then again, I don't remember what Roshi accomplished in that tournament besides barely dodging Jiren a few times, so you'll have to help me out with that one.

I feel like RoF is either rewritten or simply not taken into account for the scaling in the actual Super manga.

 

[Papasmurf]

Toyotaro usually does note if a character makes a major power-up, such as the case with Piccolo himself during the Moro by having Goku say he barely recognizes him. It's possible Roshi is a lot stronger, but if he was anywhere near Base Goku then something would have been said. Then again, I don't remember what Roshi accomplished in that tournament besides barely dodging Jiren a few times, so you'll have to help me out with that one.

I feel like RoF is either rewritten or simply not taken into account for the scaling in the actual Super manga.

I really don't believe that. The narration for the FnF arc said that Goku and Vegeta defeated Freeza together as SSJBs, but we saw in Freeza's flashback to the moment he was killed again on Earth that SSJB Galu just rushed in to wipe him out to prevent him from blowing up the Earth. That, and the artwork Toyotaro did of Shisami and Sorbet being the only ones next to Freeza, along with him retaining the movie's interpretation of sensing Godly ki (base form mortals can't do it, whether they have God forms in store or not) all points toward the manga arc being more or less the same as the movie imo.

Roshi has to be a lot stronger based on him dodging Magetta, managing to hold that robot eye Pride Trooper dude's arms in place and actually managing to damage him (whether or not his raw power was weaker) among other things. He'd just die from being exposed to other people's ki blasts if he were still on his 22nd level or less. This isn't the first time Toyotaro did this either, like when he made Kibito (who was weaker than base Gohan) keep up with Zamasu who Goku needed to go SSJG to stomp. It's possible present Zamasu is weaker than Future Zamasu, but to the extent that he'd require some effort to beat someone who was weaker than base Boo arc Gohan? I don't think so.

I think Toriyama went with base Goku and Vegeta making all of the side Z Senshi look like ants in FnF, but by U6 he figured he can't just make Goku and Vegeta the only relevant players a la the Evil Dragons arc of GT and decided to beef up other characters like Piccolo, Gohan and #17, whether he had to resort to contrived "explanations" (or even zero explanations) or not. #17 going from weaker than 1st form Cell to PSSJB tier from doing "not much of anything" may as well be zero explanation in of itself, but AT did it so he could make other characters relevant while Goku is away. Toriyama really honestly doesn't seem to care much for logic anymore. Gohan's case was just as egregious with him getting stronger than #17 just from "adapting" to Kefla and some of the other ToP fighters he clashed with. Whether that was Toyotaro's idea or not, AT still approved it.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's not a matter of whether the power ups make sense or not, it's the fact that they aren't mentioned at all in the story. #17 got stronger for no reason, but at least Toyotaro didn't beat around the bush with it by being vague with it.

Kibito holding his ground against Zamasu supports my argument more than anything. I think there is a very flawed approach to how we sometimes contextualize ''feats'', with the case of those Roshi examples.

 

[Papasmurf]

Kibito being able to halfway hold his own against Zamasu (who's stronger than SSJ2 FT arc characters) shows Toyotaro beefs up characters without mentioning power ups if anything. Either Zamasu went from base Boo arc Saiyan level to SSJ2+ FT arc level without any mention of such a power up, or Kibito just got that much stronger. And it was never mentioned. Roshi also would never be able to hold an SSJ tier character's arms in place and knock him off, cause a nosebleed etc. if he were still on Part 1 Dragon Ball level, lol. Unmentioned power ups have been happening ever since early Super. This is what I was getting at. It's part of the reason why on my MAL I rated Super a 1/10: https://myanimelist.net/mangalist/KennyTheKiller?status=4

 

[Future Warrior]

Or maybe a lot of times fights are done for spectacle that gives no indication on where a fighter stands in terms of power. Kibito's supposed SSJ2 power sure would have been useful in several arcs lmao.

Also, I could have sworn either in the ToP or Moro arc that some fodder character called Roshi a weakling, so there's that. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Anyways, I'm not going to continue this debate since we won't be changing each others mind anytime soon.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Also, I could have sworn either in the ToP or Moro arc that some fodder character called Roshi a weakling, so there's that. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

They did. Kahseral said Roshi's battle power was "dirt" but, as Kenshi said, Roshi's feats still show him as far more capable than his 22nd TB self and it's not as though characters have needed to have Ki infinitesimally lower than another to warrant similar statements in the past. There's also a counter to this with #17 saying Roshi seemed pretty strong based on what he'd accomplished, which may say a lot when his sister considered Pre-Rosat SSJ Goku/Vegeta "nothing special".

 

[Future Warrior]

And what the hell did Kahseral even accomplish in the manga? If someone like him considers someone dirt then that says a lot.

I didn't outright say Roshi is exactly as his 22nd TB self. I don't think he grew to the extent that he could beat Freeza on Namek though. That's too big of a jump to ignore. Also, Toriyama and Toyo seem to have a huge boner for having Roshi now be in every battle so he can't die instantly no matter what.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And what the hell did Kahseral even accomplish in the manga?

He and the other fodder Pride Troopers were capable of forcing Goku to go SSJ and still avoided being instantly defeated after they did so, and it's worth noting that, regardless of how close you believe SSJ Goku is to his God forms, the image training in Chapter 1 suggests he was at least not a pushover to Pure Boo at the start of the manga.

I don't think he grew to the extent that he could beat Freeza on Namek though. That's too big of a jump to ignore.

By Super standards, nothing is too huge a leap at this point, really. You have Piccolo magically going from at best comparable to CG SSJ Goku to him not being a pushover to someone not oneshot material for U6 Arc SSJs through regular training or Gohan just getting plot haxed throughout the ToP through a contrived adaption ability, or Boo/Dai Kaioshin going from far weaker than Pure Boo to beyond SSG tier from the memory unlock despite Dai Kaioshin's lack of God Ki. Super often takes plot dictating power to the extreme in both continuities.

 

[Future Warrior]

Like I said the logic behind it is not the issue, otherwise you would see me try to deny #17 is on par with Blue. It's the lack of any clarification from any of the other characters that makes me feel like the idea behind it is shaky.

The pride troopers all have to be inferior to Base Goku by some degree if they needed to use teamwork against him. As for the image training, Goku starts off at lower forms all the time in DBS. He one shotted Cell, but I question how much power he imagined him using when he didn't imagine Freeza in his full power bulky state.

 

[GSM123]

Worth pointing out he's shown swapping hands with Cell and spends more than a couple panels with him from Goten's perspective, so the image training doesn't support Goku being far above Cell.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It's the lack of any clarification from any of the other characters that makes me feel like the idea behind it is shaky.

I wouldn't say that's really something absolutely essential though, since the manga is after all a visual medium. As long as it's consistently shown, what happens onscreen should be taken thoroughly into account regardless of a lack of character reactions/statements.

The pride troopers all have to be inferior to Base Goku by some degree if they needed to use teamwork against him.

The only ones actively attacking him before he went SSJ were Vuon and Tupper (the latter of who could lock Base Goku in a hold and make him resort to SSJ) and Kunshi blocked Base Goku's hit pretty well. Kahseral took a punch from SSJ Goku pretty well and the lesser Pride Troopers like Kunshi, Zoiray and Tupper avoided getting oneshotted by SSJ Goku, despite him fighting them in the form on no less than 2 occasions and Gohan not being able to eliminate those 3 in the timespan between Goku fighting Kale and Kale's power up knocking them off. All their feats point to Kahseral being at least above Base Goku and likely closer in power to his SSJ self.

As for the image training, Goku starts off at lower forms all the time in DBS.

Against opponents who he's trying to get a feel of how strong they are (Beerus, Trunks, Toppo) and doesn't bother with this against ones he has a good idea of in terms of strength (eg. going PSSB straight away against Jiren and Kale). He's more than familiar with how strong Pure Boo is, so it'd be very out of character (even by Super Galu's standards) for him to only go SSJ against Boo if he didn't consider himself capable of at least holding his own better than SS2 Vegeta did.

Worth pointing out he's shown swapping hands with Cell and spends more than a couple panels with him from Goten's perspective, so the image training doesn't support Goku being far above Cell.

He wouldn't be able to burst Cell like a balloon if not far above him. Goku can also control his Ki very well with MSSJ, so him fighting Cell with what was a warm-up level is very possible. This is made even more plausible by the fact he only unveils his aura once he charges at Pure Boo, which was treat at the Cell Game as a sign of him putting out his full Ki.

 

[Future Warrior]

He actually did use SSJ2 to fight Toppo and Dyspo in the ToP together, so I’m not wrong.

Anyways, I’m not really that interested in analyzing feats of those Pride trooper wannabes, but the weak as “dirt” comment speaks for itself. Someone that is anywhere in the realm of Base Goku is not weak as dirt. Even during the Boo arc, the Saiyans still have respect to Namek Freezas power.

I think Roshi was getting by with his skill 99% of the time. That was pretty much his excuse for being able to dodge a couple hits from a suppressed Jiren, or even the idea behind attaining UI really. He represents that power isn’t everything in the ToP.

I know we are used this fixed system of power scaling logic back in Z, but they don’t apply here anymore, for better or worse.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He actually did use SSJ2 to fight Toppo and Dyspo in the ToP together, so I’m not wrong.

True, but the examples of him going all out vs holding back against opponents who's capabilities he was already aware of were still 2-1 in the manga ToP, so the Toppo and Dyspo example is more an exception than a rule.

Even during the Boo arc, the Saiyans still have respect to Namek Freezas power.

Goku did, but it's arguable if Vegeta did since he only seemed concerned about Shin reading his mind and different characters have different standards to what they consider praise-worthy (eg. Vegeta seeing 2nd form Cell as worthless in killing despite the difference in capabilities being far less than that between Goku and Reacoom/Butta/Jheese despite Goku referring to their Ki as "incredible"). The Base Saiyans are also vastly superior to their ToP selves and it's evident from the power of the Pride Troopers they should have a pretty high standard for what they consider to be praise-worthy Ki, so I wouldn't say any of that places a solid cap on Roshi's power.