Who made the bigger fusion gain: Merged Zamasu or Kibitoshin?

[Papasmurf]

Trouncing someone who was trouncing you before doesn't have to take a 10x gap or anything, son. Galu also said that Black may be more than he bargained for based on him merely defeating an SSJ3 tier Trunks, which he wouldn't say if a form weaker than Blue was 10 times above Trunks. This was before Galu saw that Black can go SSJ as well.

 

[Future Warrior]

Non-Serious Toppo: Completely decimating SSJ3 Goku while holding back

SSJ3 Goku: Says that Toppo might not stand a chance against SSJ God.

''It's a 2x gap''

 

[Animelover5487]

Trouncing someone who was trouncing you before doesn't have to take a 10x gap or anything, son. Galu also said that Black may be more than he bargained for based on him merely defeating an SSJ3 tier Trunks, which he wouldn't say if a form weaker than Blue was 10 times above Trunks. This was before Galu saw that Black can go SSJ as well.

Aren't you and Cadaver the same guys who said Black didn't surpass God until Rose?

SSJB Goku/Vegeta > SSJR Black > SSJG Goku/Vegeta > SSJ Black (2nd Zenkai) > SSJ Black (1st Zenkai) > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black (Pre Zenkai) > Base Black > Base Black (vs Trunks) > SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks >> Initial SSJ2 Trunks >= SSJ2 Goku >> SSJ Goku


Seems like a lot to stretch inside a 10 times gap

 

[Captain Cadaver]

[mention]Future Warrior[/mention] Vegeta could trounce Dodoria with ease despite the official gap between them not even being a 1.1x one, so the idea of SS3 and SSG absolutely needing to be several times at least from the feats and statements provided is far from necessary, not to mention the idea of numerical gaps and their requirements in general is at best consistently inconsistent and at worst just whatever Toriyama feels like.

Aren't you and Cadaver the same guys who said Black didn't surpass God until Rose?

SSJB Goku/Vegeta > SSJR Black > SSJG Goku/Vegeta > SSJ Black (2nd Zenkai) > SSJ Black (1st Zenkai) > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black (Pre Zenkai) > Base Black > Base Black (vs Trunks) > SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks >> Initial SSJ2 Trunks >= SSJ2 Goku >> SSJ Goku

Seems like a lot to stretch inside a 10 times gap

Not really. Gaps are overall entirely plot dependent, and Vegeta was still at somewhat less than 10% whilst still being slightly stronger than SSJ Goku, so it's not exactly a 10x difference between SSJ and Blue. Numerically, it's pretty easy to work with what's given, with something like:

SSJ Goku/Vegeta - 1
SS3 Goku - 4
SS2 Vegeta - 6.6
SSG Goku/Vegeta - 10
SSB Goku/Vegeta - 12.5

Base Black - 5
SSJ Black - 6.25
SSJ Black (Zenkai) - 7
SSJ Black (2nd Zenkai) - 9
SSR Black - ~11-12

 

[Future Warrior]

No shit gaps are inconsistent. Why do you think I'm not advocating for SSJ Goku and Roshi or #18 being God tier because of their so called feats. I don't see how that argument should be directed at me of all people.

 

[Papasmurf]

Trouncing someone who was trouncing you before doesn't have to take a 10x gap or anything, son. Galu also said that Black may be more than he bargained for based on him merely defeating an SSJ3 tier Trunks, which he wouldn't say if a form weaker than Blue was 10 times above Trunks. This was before Galu saw that Black can go SSJ as well.

Aren't you and Cadaver the same guys who said Black didn't surpass God until Rose?

SSJB Goku/Vegeta > SSJR Black > SSJG Goku/Vegeta > SSJ Black (2nd Zenkai) > SSJ Black (1st Zenkai) > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black (Pre Zenkai) > Base Black > Base Black (vs Trunks) > SSJ3 Goku/SSJ2 Trunks >> Initial SSJ2 Trunks >= SSJ2 Goku >> SSJ Goku


Seems like a lot to stretch inside a 10 times gap

I never said any such thing. If anything I was a proponent for SSJ Black (post Zenkai) >= SSJB Vegeta based on the fact that Vegeta didn't really fare better right after getting a Senzu, and that whole fight in of itself was full of plot holes when considering that SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black >> Base Black >> SSJ3 Galu is laughable without Vegeta's SSJ2 boost being multiple times higher than Galu's.

Non-Serious Toppo: Completely decimating SSJ3 Goku while holding back

SSJ3 Goku: Says that Toppo might not stand a chance against SSJ God.

''It's a 2x gap''

>It's a 2x gap

I said it could be as low as 2 or 3 times, nice try.

>Toppo decimated SSJ3 Galu while holding back

Nail could decimate Transformed Zarbon just as easily, and that Zarbon was significantly stronger than early Namek Vegeta. Nail wasn't even twice as strong as early Namek Vegeta. God's gap over SSJ3 could easily fit inside a 3x gap :bitch

Furthermore, God forms being a dozen times higher than SSJ3 or more is laughable considering Galu was worried about how strong Black could be based on him decimating SSJ2FP Trunks. While I do agree God's multiplier over 3 could be higher than the previous 2 forms' multipliers in Super due to Galu's implication that this was the start of a new level (which can easily just mean it's the beginning of God tier), a dozen times or higher is not warranted, and it doesn't fit with Galu's apprehension of Black after sparring with Trunks. On what planet would 50% or 100% Freeza be scared or even wary of post-Dende Vegeta, who's dozens of times below him?

 

[Future Warrior]

From what I gather the SSJ Goku vs Hit is just that much of a huge indicator to you guys. I've already said my peace regarding that topic, but it looks like we won't reach a common consensus. Let's just agree to disagree then. No hard feelings, guys

 

[Papasmurf]

From what I gather the SSJ Goku vs Hit is just that much of a huge indicator to you guys. I've already said my peace regarding that topic, but it looks like we won't reach a common consensus. Let's just agree to disagree then. No hard feelings, guys

It's not just the Hit fight, if it was only the Hit fight I would consider it to either have been soft-retconned away due to Galu implying SSJG was on a whole new level from the previous 3 forms, or some form of outlier. It's also the fact that Galu had a worried expression on his face after needing God to defeat SSJ2FP Trunks, despite also having Blue in reserve on top of God. Doesn't seem like God is a dozen times above 3 or some such nonsense, because then Galu would be his usual overconfident Super self.

God forms in general are given more respect than previous forms, such as when Galu was sparring with Merus in SSJ/3 and then almost broke the room when he tried to go God, but it doesn't seem to be to any greater degree than how 3 was given more significance than previous forms in the Boo arc, to the point that Gotenks outright skipped SSJ2 and transformed straight to 3. God and Blue being over a dozen times stronger than 3 doesn't fit in with multiple implications and Galu's demeanor toward an unknown power who was merely significantly stronger than his SSJ3 form, as well as 10% SSJB Vegeta not being on another tier from SSJ Galu. Or the fact that old Moro didn't one-shot SSJ2 Vegeta.

SSJ (and possibly base) Black pre-zenkais > suppressed Toppo > SSJ3 Galu ~ SSJ2FP Trunks > SSJ2 Galu > Cabba and other fags from the U6 tournament is pretty etched in stone considering that, imo.

 

[Future Warrior]

At least you're being honest with your beliefs. I respect that.

 

[Papasmurf]

At least you're being honest with your beliefs. I respect that.

Well I admit it's hard to find any real consistency in Super with retarded statements like SSJ2 (pre-full power) Trunks being compared to the likes of Gohan from the Cell arc, or the Dai Kaioshin wank in the Moro arc which is impossible to numerically rationalize with any sort of consistency with the implied gaps that have built up in Super. But overall, the feats and statements in the U6 and FT arcs don't seem to make the lower forms look like COMPLETE trash to God/Blue forms, and Toyotaro having Freeza compare SSJ Caulifla to Galu on Namek (or possibly SSJ Gohan from the FnF arc?) just tells me these benchmarks aren't meant to imply any sort of closeness to the powers that the characters are comparing their opponents to. So I choose to side with the feats and statements that line up with the feats moreso than retard level statements/comparisons like the ones I outlined above. There's also the Broly movie not implying TOO wide of a gap between SSJ1 and SSJG/SSJB, with SSJ Vegeta being able to stomp base Broly, yet we see Broly being able to surpass his God form by going Ikari (which is equal to Oozaru) and the like.

 

[Future Warrior]

I think we can all agree that DBS is generally retarded.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah that's why I gave up on finding consistency in it a long time ago. I rated the Broly movie a 4/10 or so, which while still pretty abysmal, is a lot higher than what CC gave it because I don't expect AT to find good excuses to get randomly introduced characters on the level of base/SSJ Galu and Vegeta anymore. As long as I can watch it as popcorn entertainment and there isn't AS stupid of a reasoning for why Broly wasn't detected until the very moment he was found, etc. as some of the shit we saw in the Moro arc, I'm good.

 

[Papasmurf]

AT is senile and frankly somewhat mentally ill if he thinks the finale of the Moro arc is a good end to an arc that is a continuation of his magnum opus, if we get something too far above the Broly movie in quality I'd think something was wrong

 

[Pyro]

Super needs a guidebook to explain the Zamasu stuff. We are dead in the water without it.

 

[SSJ2]

Every guidebook regarding Dragon Ball has been written by clowns.

 

[Papasmurf]

That guidebook would no doubt contradict power chains later established in the ToP arc. Oh well, ToP is shit and I hated the Kefla wank in it. I'm all for it.

 

[Animelover5487]

Kefla wank? Kefla was hardly stronger than Kale herself who was already PSSJB tier or perhaps higher. At least in the anime SSJ Kefla was stronger than Kaioken x20 Blue and unlocked SS2 where she was UI tier.

 

[ahill1]

Base Goku: 1
-- SSJ : 4
-- SSJ2 : 8
-- SSJ3 : 32
-- SSJG : 300
-- SSJB : 600

Vegeta : 1
-- SSJ : 4
-- SSJ2 : 165
-- SSJG : 300
-- SSJB : 600

Black : 36
-- SSJ : 144
-- SSJ (post Zenkai) : 670
-- SSJ Rosé : 100,000

SSJG Vegeta (post RoSaT) : 100,000
SSJB Vegeta (used in bursts) : 200,000

Merged Zamasu : 1,000,000

PSSJB Goku ; 1,000,000


Makes sense to me.

 

[Papasmurf]

Kefla wank? Kefla was hardly stronger than Kale herself who was already PSSJB tier or perhaps higher. At least in the anime SSJ Kefla was stronger than Kaioken x20 Blue and unlocked SS2 where she was UI tier.

I meant anime Kefla

 

[Keedounan]

I think it goes to show how much weaker Zamasu truly is compared to anybody using the God forms.

The fact that Goku resorted to SSJG against him shows that SSJ3's stamina drain would've made it too difficult for him to beat up Zamasu enough to have him give up though.

That's probably because Goku had already used up a lot of stamina in his attempt to seal Zamasu with the Mafuba.