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@Natasha Romanoff I gave my opinion and you contested it in an attempt to change my mind. Therefore, it is absolutely relevant that you do disprove my argument and provide proof that Jiren was holding back in effort which you have not. The narrative is consistent in the fact that Jiren...

Not really. Trunks and Piccolo clearly meant base form. That's the form Trunks alluded to hence why Trunks believes starting out in that form and escalating it via transforming would shock Piccolo. It's also obvious given how his Base form is the one he decided to start the fight with. You guys...

The gag scene was executed completely differently compared to when Base Gotenks first wanted to battle Fat Buu. Kuririn and Yamucha merely claim Base Gotenks' was confident and fell for his bluff while Piccolo completely cast him to the side. The humor in it is that Base Gotenks was warned by...

Absolutely not. Base (Post) > SSJ (Pre) has to be a thing. It's literally reinforced by two characters. The only thing we are expected to believe is that they miscalculated Super Buu's power. Not that they miscalculated Gotenks' power. The gag revolving around Gotenks failing to beat Buu and...

Jiren is far from full power. No one is disputing that. How that suggests Jiren is holding back in effort despite using a power that far exceeds Ultra Instinct Omen against Blue opponents is something you have yet to prove. You haven't changed my mind here. The only thing that's required is that...

It doesn't matter. You have yet to prove that he was holding back in effort. "Could have" really isn't good enough. Jiren prefers to conserve energy and only uses more energy when necessary. That's what Jiren does throughout the entire fight.

Jiren would just be flexing his power whenever the situation arises. Aside from that, Vegeta's statement could also just be him provoking Jiren which makes sense given the context I provided. Nothing definitively suggests that Jiren was sandbagging when no one was suspicious about Vegeta's...

It's a weak argument. Whis talks about Vegeta trying to push Jiren harder so that Vegeta could break his limits right before that statement was made. At the beginning of the battle, Jiren was an impenetrable wall for Vegeta. None of his attacks fazed him. When Vegeta bounces back from Jiren's...

Kaioshin forgot about SSJ2 Gohan. Pui Pui should be stronger than Frieza since Kaioshin was scared of him.

I'll have to check but Kuririn definitely made that statement.

I know the argument comes from Vegeta's statement "You were faster and stronger against Kakarot!" but contextually, he's just trying to provoke Jiren. Vegeta already claimed that he was the strongest power he's ever encountered and Goku, Whis, Beerus, Belmod, etc. don't even call Jiren's...

Hard to say. By the start of the Tournament of Power, Blue Vegeta reached a level on par with Toppo who matched Kaioken Blue Goku in the Exhibition. Naturally, he should be stronger than Hit was when he fought Dyspo. The tough thing is whether or not Blue Vegeta could fight against Hit (vs...

Yes. Goku believed both fusion dance and the potara would have been enough to beat Super Buu.

It's been a while so I would have to check. I believe it may have been after Goku showed up but Kuririn does mention how he didn't think Gohan could do anything even if he had continued to train. For Gohan, he mentioned to Bulma that Frieza was stronger than him at his best when he was in his...

The only thing we know for certain is that First Form Frieza would likely be stronger than Ultimate Gohan based on what Kuririn and Gohan say. There's no way to know for certain so I'll say only Final Form Frieza wins.

As I said, there is conflicting evidence for both sides. You have to disregard other pieces of evidence to make either perspective work.

Goku still wins. If forcing back KKx20 Goku's Kamehameha and Genkidama wasn't enough for Frieza to grow stronger, a mere push-up isn't cutting it.

I'm not sure. I've always figured that Gohan's latent power had increased upon reawakening his Ultimate form.

I didn't insert any of my personal beliefs around the debate. I interjected by suggesting that one of the stipulations may not necessarily be fair for one of the participants which I feel is fair game. Would you rather I comment on this after the debate concluded when the evidence has already...

It depends on what the anime evidence is because the anime is heavily skewed in Goku's favor. Providing the original subbed is perfectly fine but I think any filler or statements added in by Toei should be taken with a grain of salt because they are not necessarily representative of what...