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Dabura wins in both scenarios. They lack the skill and experience necessary to deal with his magic and I think SSJ Gohan has the leg-up above SSJ Goten and Trunks after he trained during the Budokai via muscle memory. Gohan still remained relevant to the adults and the kids never gave me that...

@ahill1 I'm not sure why the framing of the scene really matters. The only thing that would matter in regard to dodging would be the characters' position relative to the blast, the speed/power behind it, and the reaction to it. In the Goku vs. Raditz example, it's self-evident that the blast...

That is irrelevant to the point. If the argument is that the blast from the Super Saiyan kids could not be significantly beyond Android 18 because she managed to dodge it, then the point still stands that Goku evading Raditz' blast is a counterexample to the claim because even you agree that the...

Piccolo didn't object to Kuririn when Kuririn claimed that SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was supposed to be the strongest.

They would have to be if they surpassed UI Omen Goku (Moro) and Blue Evolved Vegeta (Moro) since it was established they had become the strongest of U7 prior to Granolah as of Chapter 68.

That's a marginal difference at best. That only means that Vegeta was slightly affected by Semi Cell's punch but he still withstood it the same way SSJ Goku did against 50% Frieza's death beam. There's no way the gap is limited to 10% when Recoome with a 1.33x advantage against Vegeta was being...

Goku also evaded Raditz' unexpected ki blast when he was flying towards Raditz at full speed. That same blast literally blew off Piccolo's arm. By your logic though, Goku would have completely escaped the blast unscathed. We've already seen much slower fighters react to something much faster...

The suppressed blast had outrageous power. It would have nearly killed her.

Bullshit. Tao Pai Pai is just being overhyped. Goku, Tenshinhan, and Tsuru-sennin don't know shit.

So Piccolo ambushed him but that suddenly falls in line with Babidi expecting him to be there? No offense, but there are so many arguments people make up in favor of Kaioshin and his fear during Babidi's ship but no one ever comes up with a reason as to why Babidi was scared. Talk about double...

You're overthinking it. It just means that Base Gotenks is weak compared to Super Buu. Piccolo promised him a powerful opponent so Buu was disappointed when Base Gotenks didn't live up to the hype.

SSJG2 Vegeta tanked a direct punch from Semi Cell in a similar fashion as Vegeta did against Android 19 (Post). There is no way this is merely a 10% advantage. SSJ Goku still budged with a 2x advantage against Frieza. Likewise, Vegeta held a multifold advantage on Jeise and a direct blow from...

It's going to be twisted to support Piccolo > Kaioshin but it's very clear that Piccolo knew that Kaioshin was stronger than him based on who he was. The only ones who overestimated Kaioshin were the Saiyans. Babidi vs. Piccolo wouldn't even be a proper counterargument. Piccolo ambushed Babidi...

Piccolo didn't know he was weaker until after he discovered who Kaioshin was. Kaioshin even reaffirmed Piccolo's decision by suggesting that he must have discovered his identity. The two aren't mutually exclusive. They are directly connected.

You'd literally be denying the story if you had Piccolo > Kaioshin. It's flat-out presented as a case of Kaioshin being much stronger than Piccolo which leads the Saiyans to overestimate Kaioshin until it was revealed that he wasn't anything special.

My point is very simple. Why would Trunks be referring to Super Saiyan when they decide to start the fight as Base Gotenks? Within Trunks' conversation with Goten, there was no such discussion about transforming mid-fight at all. Part of the reason for dragging out the fight would be to show...

Yeah, that is too long. All I know is that Trunks and Goten agreed to start the fight in "regular fusion", begins the battle as Base Gotenks, and is shocked that he is outclassed. That's enough for me to conclude that "regular fusion" is Base Gotenks.

@Natasha Romanoff It's not my job to prove Jiren was using full effort. You are the one who made the claim that Jiren was holding back in effort. It's up to you prove it. I already addressed that Vegeta's statement of "You were fighting harder against Kakarot!" was made to provoke Jiren. That...

What the hell? SSJ Goku couldn't even tank 50% Frieza's death beam the way Initial Semi Cell took Android 16's punch. Recoome withstood Vegeta's attacks with cosmetic damage at best but he was still tossed around like a rag doll. How powerful is Android 19 (Post) compared to SSJ Vegeta?

Trunks clearly intended to have an even fight with Buu before surprising Piccolo that they could transform for dramatic effect. Being able to transform after fusion was meant for dramatic effect. I think you are the one overthinking things. We're just taking things directly as stated.