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Toriyama probably forgot something here. There's a massive change from the Budokai to the rest of the saga. The Shin business as well as Gohan. But there's a point where Super Saiyan becomes the standard, and the Super Saiyan 2 shown previously is largely forgotten about. So remember, the way...

Original manga is equal weight to the new manga. Therefore what comes later supersedes what came before. You don't seem to understand the latter part of my statement. That's why you still struggle with Piccolo vs Base Saiyans, because you aren't following logic. Later sagas overwrite previous...

Occam's Razor, the kids are as strong as Vegeta says they are. This is such a simple issue, it's madness to see it being debated against.

Vegeta implies that he knows 17 knows how strong Future Trunks is. There's no reason to doubt him.

How do you justify that? At least give Gohan a rage boost or something, my goodness.

Cell's massive power up is smaller than his powerup in his second form?

So Less than Half Gohan is weaker than Ssj Gohan?

Nice... I haven't seen this argued before, but yes, DBS proves that SSJ2 Z Sword isn't all that great.

Grade 3 > Ssj 2 > Grade 2

Of course. If the source material is that clear on something who are we to go against it? This is not merely some supplemental material, this is bonafide source material.

I think Goku being at 80% is probably best for the scenario. Fat Buu 75 Goku 80 Goku All Out 100 Good Buu absorbs the power of South Kaioshin and retains the power of Fat Buu, now being complete as Mr. Buu.

I think I'm going to leave him unratable from now on. It's not worth the hassle.

In an attempt to create perfection in his work, I've been overly critical of the man who's accounted for thousands of hours of entertainment and joy. Forgive me Sensei, I will always cherish the stories you created helped me through so many years of my life.

I can see that being the lens of Vegeta and Nappa, but in this situation, it still doesn't work. The term "rivals" cannot be so vague, whereas the term, "powers barely over 1,000" definitely takes that lens into account. These are two separate issues. Piccolo's comments seem to suggest it...

Sure, but the fight performances are based on the numbers. I can see that, Zarbon and Vegeta are suggested to rival each other by Krillen, as well as Majin Vegeta and Kid Gohan. Yeah. Although recently I began thinking that Raditz still isn't at full power when he blocks the Kamehameha. But I...

Because we have evidence it can't. Goku had no chance against FP Vegeta. An 88% gap is too much to overcome. This gap is significantly greater than that.

1,200 doesn’t rival 1,500 though how is 1,500 considered? Ah yes I see your point now why would a weaker fighter drop your courage I see

I’m losing your overall point here. Where are we at again?

Initially he rejects it, then he thinks it’s real.

Super struggles with showing tremendous gaps.