Gap MSSJ Goku/MSSJ Gohan at Cell Games

[kriss-]

There is a problem with you asking for being countered. Counter what? An indirect statement that does not directly state what you think and one that can interpreted another way? There is no reason to counter that, I can just interpret it another way.

If you actually had a direct statement to prove me wrong, I would definitely acknowledge it. But as of now, I'm still waiting.

Can you explain how "the one sho surpasses Goku" isn't direct? Because I'm failing to see how.

Different interpretations are perfectly acceptable, but in this situation, there is not alternate viewpoint. You're only resorting to calling it an opinion because you haven't found anything to discredit Gohan being stated to be stronger.

There is definitely an alternative because it does not directly state that Gohan is stronger then Goku, it's that simple.

Except you didn't flip anything. Your assumption in the face of various quotes is just your refusal to accept you're wrong.

"The next guy will be stronger than you and me."
"Looks like Goku wasn't entirely bluffing. Still, it's a joke to suggest he could defeat me.

Translation: Goku said that Gohan would be stronger than both himself and Cell. Cell can see the how Goku's words were somewhat truthful, but he's definitely not on Cell's level. Cell is stronger than Goku, Gohan is stronger than Goku.

Goku is a lot slower than Gohan? Check.
Goku's full-power is a joke in the eyes of Gohan? Check
Cell did no actual damage to the holding-back Gohan? Check.
Is Gohan stronger than Goku? Check.

Post any type of evidence remotely implying Goku is stronger than Gohan or take the L.

Goku is a-lot slower then Gohan.

Counter: Speed doesn't correlate with strength, self explanatory.

Goku's full power is a joke in the eyes of Gohan.

Counter: Gohan expected more from the established norm.

Is Gohan stronger then Goku.

Counter: It's never directly shown.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”

The entire purpose of these statements are to suggest that Gohan has been keeping up with them all along, not that he was actually stronger and Goku wasn't banking on where Gohan currently is, he was banking on what he saw inside the Rosat.

And stop being a dick.

 

[Six Trails]

There is definitely an alternative because it does not directly state that Gohan is stronger then Goku, it's that simple.

Again, can you please explain how "the one who surpasses Goku" isn't direct?

 

[kriss-]

There is definitely an alternative because it does not directly state that Gohan is stronger then Goku, it's that simple.

Again, can you please explain how "the one who surpasses Goku" isn't direct?

Surpasses when? We've no evidence to suggest he did until he became a Super Saiyan 2. The implications of Gohan's latent ability always leads him to surpassing Goku but that doesn't happen until SSj2.

 

[Six Trails]

I also forgot to add, before going into the RoSaT, Goku commented that he wanted Gohan to surpass him after their training. Why would Goku leave the RoSaT early if he didn't reach his goal?

 

[Six Trails]

There is definitely an alternative because it does not directly state that Gohan is stronger then Goku, it's that simple.

Again, can you please explain how "the one who surpasses Goku" isn't direct?

Surpasses when? We've no evidence to suggest he did until he became a Super Saiyan 2. The implications of Gohan's latent ability always leads him to surpassing Goku but that doesn't happen until SSj2.

The title of the chapter was before Gohan went Super Saiyan 2. It was when SS Gohan fought Cell.

 

[kriss-]

And as I showed, Goku was banking on SSj2 not Super Saiyan. At the expense of direct evidence, it's a logical determination to suggest that Gohan wasn't stronger then Goku.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I like how you conveniently omitted the quotes afterwards. You know, the one where Gohan thought Goku wasn't fighting seriously, along with Vegeta saying it was impossible for Gohan to see the battle the way he did.

Even when Goku showed his full-power, Gohan was wondering why everyone was excited over it. His superior was already foreshadowed and became a fact when he stepped-up to fight. These guys did the same exact training and utilized the same exact form. There's no special properties to Gohan's Super Saiyan, and the very thought of that is reaching. Gohan is stronger and faster than Goku. The chapter says it, Cell agrees with it, and everyone's reaction paints him as the strongest one there.

Where's your proof that Goku is stronger?

 

[kriss-]

I omitted them because it wasn't necessary to involve them and I directly countered that part of the quote anyways.

Gohan always believes that his dad is the best and the fact that he's kept up with them shows the opposite. Gohan expected more but that doesn't necessarily mean he's stronger.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

So where's your proof that Goku is stronger?

 

[Six Trails]

http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5771&start=30#p132070

^ Why did you ignore this post?

 

[kriss-]

So where's your proof that Goku is stronger?

I'm basically flipping your own evidence on you guys. 1

http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5771&start=30#p132070

^ Why did you ignore this post?

Because you posted simultaneously as I did and I didn't notice it.

 

[Pyro]

I don't even understand this.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You can't flip a damn thing when the chapter where Gohan shows his power says he surpassed Goku. Stop arguing for the sake of it and hold that L.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah t0sh, Gohan>Goku, there's no other way around lol.

 

[Six Trails]

http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5771&start=30#p132070

^ Why did you ignore this post?

Because you posted simultaneously as I did and I didn't notice it.

Okay...so are you going to address it?

 

[sei'taer]

Here just for reference. You can add Piccolo to the list of people who admit gohan is the strongest.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

And the chapter title itself.

209. "The Successor" (悟空を超えた戦士 "Gokū o Koeta Senshi"?, lit. "The Warrior Who Surpassed Goku")

 

[Future Warrior]

^Case closed

 

[ahill1]

I think a 75% gap might be enough. Something like this:

Goku FPSSJ : 90
Cell [vs Goku] : 100
Cell [real speed] : 120
Gohan FPSSJ : 120

But for the sake of fitting the Boo saga characters in a more comfortable way, I'd have:

Goku FPSSJ : 25
Cell [vs Goku] : 28
Cell [real speed] : 34
Gohan FPSSJ : 36

I find discussing the gap between the two rather interesting. There as much people who believe Gohan is only a tiny bit stronger (like 1.1x or something) as there are as much people who believes the gap is pretty considerably (like 1.3x+). I honestly can see both sides, but I tend to go with the latter option, since the Cell who was one or two steps ahead of Goku couldn't even hit Gohan once until he raised his speed. Even when using his real speed (I think he increased his powers too) he couldn't hurt Gohan (in a sense of power dropping).

Of course there's still Goku and Cell just playing around in the eyes of Gohan, who couldn't even understand why everyone was so surprised at his papa's power level.

I see Gohan showing a rather better performance than Goku even while lacking the will to fight. This calls for a massive gap IMO.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It's because whenever Cell hit Gohan, there's no damage at all.

 

[kriss-]

Here just for reference. You can add Piccolo to the list of people who admit gohan is the strongest.

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.7
Context: after Goku displays his power to Karin
Gohan: “…I wonder…Has father really become so incredible?...”

Chapter: 398 (DBZ 204), P7.1-3
Context: everyone gawking at Goku’s full power
Kuririn: “This really is an incredible ki…! It figures he’d outstrip everyone.”
Gohan: “…Why is everyone so surprised…I think he really is incredible, but…”

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4
Context: after Gohan powers up
Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!”
Cell: “Looks like what Son Goku said wasn’t a complete bluff…But it seems he overstated things a little when he said you could defeat me…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P12.1
Piccolo: “Don’t forget…! Even if his power is #1, he’s still a kid…!”

And the chapter title itself.

209. "The Successor" (悟空を超えた戦士 "Gokū o Koeta Senshi"?, lit. "The Warrior Who Surpassed Goku")

The sad thing is, none of that proves Gohan is stronger. =/