How strong is Android Piccolo compared to Goku/Vegeta?

[ahill1]

Maybe because he wasn't expecting the Androids to be so pathetic. I could at least understand Piccolo questioning that possibility. It makes no sense for him to really question becoming too strong because it makes it seem like he's unsure of his vast improvement.

Why pathetic? Because he was beated by Piccolo?

But I mean, Piccolo having to open up two possibilities doesn't imply he wasn't expecting to beat those androids?

 

[p123]

Well that's the point ahill, he's not sure. He didn't expect it to be this easy. So he questions, were they not as tough as we thought they would be, or are we just too strong? Both are options. It's clear everyone is way beyond what Goku and Trunks were years ago.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, I agree. Piccolo even considering the possibility of them growing too strong would be nonsense if he was still below Yardrat Goku.

What is your gap between androids saga Piccolo and Yardrat Goku? I have it as 75%.

 

[p123]

We are all wrong, I have just realized it. There is no way it's that close. We have underestimated the gap by way too much here...

Remember, Trunks considers the Androids "monsters". He has no chance against them. Seeing Goku's strength gives Trunks "a little hope". And that's not just right then and there, that's in Trunks mind about the future clash.

If Trunks has no chance and a significantly stronger Goku only gives him a little hope and that's factoring in Goku training his ass of for years, we are talking massive gains...

Let's start with something nice and simple. Piccolo is 2x Yardrat Goku, let's see how that works out.

 

[Super Neko Majin Z]

3 years is a shit ton of time, every other saga has has massive gains in that amount of time.

*cough* CG Gohan > Buu Arc Vegeta *cough*

 

[p123]

That's only because Gohan had a rage boost on top of his power.

Super Saiyan Vegeta should be well ahead of Super Saiyan Kid Gohan by this point.

 

[ahill1]

Piccolo being 2x Goku? That might work I guess. They expected the androids to be hugely above Yardrat Goku, right? Like how?

 

[p123]

I already told you how, Trunks's power is considered impressive to Goku, yet he has no hope for himself of ever beating them. Hell, his mom had to make a freaking time machine to somehow try to beat them.

Let's try and throw some wacky shit out here right now...

Vegeta 1,000
Goku 950
Trunks 850
Sick Goku 700
Android 19 Post 700
Piccolo 600
Android 20 Post 500
Android 20 Pre 400
Android 19 Pre 350


Actually, that shit doesn't look that wacky at all right now, that looks damn good.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, Trunks only having a "little hope" is a good point. But after 3 years Trunks pretty much reached those future androids level on his own, so there's a possibility he wasn't thinking too hard on it.

 

[p123]

Or, he gained massive power during his training. Also, don't forget, it's likely the Androids held back on him so as not to kill their last play thing.

 

[ahill1]

So he got stronger than what he hoped Goku would get?

Nah, #17 also said he was playing with Kamiccolo.

So even 19 and 20 pre are stronger than Yardrat Goku?

 

[Void]

Piccolo can't be inferior to sick Goku if 20 > 19.

 

[p123]

Present 17's talk is about having fun with Piccolo, clearly not in a toying way. He is enjoying the combat of going all out. Meanwhile, Future 17/18 have conquered the world, they have fun by kicking around the only strong guy left. Let's not forget that 17 honors bushido code whereas Future 17 is a murderous psychopath. Many differences between the timelines, power not being one of them of course.

19 and 20 should both be able to take out Goku/Trunks. Yes, in the Androids Saga, Yardrat Goku is complete garbage. Whereas Vegeta can spot that these Androids are not legit, it doesn't stand out to him that they were complete lies. It's not like they are stronger than the weak guys from years ago. Goku/Trunks are old news now.

They are probably only decently above them though instead of massively superior. I'd say Yardrat Goku is probably 75% of Android 19 or something like that could be a fair start.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

When it comes to Goku and Piccolo: Unseen Super Saiyan Goku>>Piccolo>>Weakened Super Saiyan Goku (close to full-power)

Piccolo demolished an energized Gero at a much easier pace than Goku could a much weaker #19. #19 hadn't even absorbed any energy yet, whereas Gero had absorbed Super Saiyan Vegeta's blast and Piccolo's suppressed energy. I don't think Piccolo can be weaker than Goku when he was fighting #19.

 

[p123]

Wekaned Super Saiyan Goku is not close to full power though, are you talking about the power Goku is using which Piccolo and Gohan criticize?

I'd say Goku>19 Pre is larger than Piccolo>20Post for sure.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”

So not his actual full-power, but his full-power in that state. I still have it above Yardrat Goku before he used the KMHMH and drops in power altogether.

Initial #20>Initial #19
Energized #20>>>>Initial #19

Piccolo's domination against the superior #20 seems like a good enough reason to put him above Goku against #19. Goku dominated #19, but it was a pretty drawn out beat-down that was necessary for #19 to run out of energy. Piccolo was just knocking #20 around with attacks almost effortlessly. At the very least, they can be equal.

 

[p123]

Negative, that's a misinterpretation. Bad wording from Viz. The correct wording is, why is he so weak even though he's giving it all he's got? That's the true interpretation, just sloppily worded.

Super Saiyan Sick Goku should be vastly superior to Yardrat Goku. Or else, what was the point? Yardrat Goku had no chance against the Androids, even though he's sick, he's still stupendously powerful.

And no, Goku is making 19 go flying, 20 has some control over himself even after being surprised. Piccolo is clearly not anywhere close to as superior as Goku was over 19. Check the fights again.

 

[Void]

EV posted Herms' line. The pic I posted is from Viz.

 

[p123]

Oh, apologies to Viz. Viz actually got this right. I think there is another line Piccolo botches during this sequence. It's funky wording by the author (in Japanese), but Viz, per usual, hits to the heart of the matter. Many times, Viz>Herms, but people don't like that narrative.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku's putting all of his effort into the fight to beat #19 around. Piccolo doesn't need to exert himself to shred the fuck out of a more powerful #20. He's kicking #20's ass and talking shit the entire time. I just took a quick look and Piccolo looks a lot more chill and dominant than Goku ever did despite putting in literally half the effort that he did. If Piccolo went ham nearly as much as Goku did, #20 would've been done in quickly.

Also, with the way Tien was salty over how powerful Piccolo and Vegeta had both gotten, I just think it makes a lot more sense to have Piccolo as the next best thing after Vegeta. Super Saiyan Goku fighting #19 being below Piccolo's full-power is not an issue.