Is this proof that Freeza>19?

[Southern Gothic]

Didn't Vegeta only have one hand extended for that attack? Big Bang maybe, but I don't think it was Final Flash.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I just said that...

You've never had someone post while you're writing a post?

 

[POOHEAD189]

But the crux of the matter is that he said nothing of Goku exceeding his predictions until he transformed. If the punch was within parameters that comment was well-placed, if not, it wouldn't have been. Gero also couldn't give two shits if his attack was stopped as he doesn't care for innocent bystanders either way. The fact that he doesn't say anything of Goku's power surpassing his predictions seals the deal.

I think the crux of the matter is how he acted. And even if I don't care too much about an activity, if I know someone is going to strike me mid-action I might as well not do it at all. But he did.

 

[kriss-]

It depends on your gaps.

The multiplication of the final flash probably brought Vegeta in range to actually causing some damage. Hence why it was Vegeta who did it. He was the only one strong enough to have an effect on the Android.

 

[Papasmurf]

But the crux of the matter is that he said nothing of Goku exceeding his predictions until he transformed. If the punch was within parameters that comment was well-placed, if not, it wouldn't have been. Gero also couldn't give two shits if his attack was stopped as he doesn't care for innocent bystanders either way. The fact that he doesn't say anything of Goku's power surpassing his predictions seals the deal.

I think the crux of the matter is how he acted. And even if I don't care too much about an activity, if I know someone is going to strike me mid-action I might as well not do it at all. But he did.

I don't particularly care to get in a prolonged debate about this, but Gero showed no surprise at Goku being able to do what he did when punching him in the middle of the attack, yet openly acknowledged Goku's Super Saiyan power was well beyond his expectations. I say he's seen nothing from Goku's base form to wow him, which seems more appropriate with later dialogue. I'll agree to disagree.

 

[POOHEAD189]

But the crux of the matter is that he said nothing of Goku exceeding his predictions until he transformed. If the punch was within parameters that comment was well-placed, if not, it wouldn't have been. Gero also couldn't give two shits if his attack was stopped as he doesn't care for innocent bystanders either way. The fact that he doesn't say anything of Goku's power surpassing his predictions seals the deal.

I think the crux of the matter is how he acted. And even if I don't care too much about an activity, if I know someone is going to strike me mid-action I might as well not do it at all. But he did.

I don't particularly care to get in a prolonged debate about this, but Gero showed no surprise at Goku being able to do what he did when punching him in the middle of the attack, yet openly acknowledged Goku's Super Saiyan power was well beyond his expectations. I say he's seen nothing from Goku's base form to wow him, which seems more appropriate with later dialogue. I'll agree to disagree.

I might disagree with what you say sir, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

 

[Papasmurf]

It depends on your gaps.

The multiplication of the final flash probably brought Vegeta in range to actually causing some damage. Hence why it was Vegeta who did it. He was the only one strong enough to have an effect on the Android.

Vegeta knew of the attack's long charge time and so kept taunting Cell into taking the attack head-on. He's sure that it would work, and Cell begs to differ until the very second it's fired when he flips out at how unexpectedly powerful it is. Whether Cell tried to brace himself or not the attack is portrayed as capable of wounding him.

 

[kriss-]

It depends on your gaps.

The multiplication of the final flash probably brought Vegeta in range to actually causing some damage. Hence why it was Vegeta who did it. He was the only one strong enough to have an effect on the Android.

Vegeta knew of the attack's long charge time and so kept taunting Cell into taking the attack head-on. He's sure that it would work, and Cell begs to differ until the very second it's fired when he flips out at how unexpectedly powerful it is. Whether Cell tried to brace himself or not the attack is portrayed as capable of wounding him.

Oh my god.

We're going back and forth.

Anyways, Cell was suppressed and didn't think anything of the attack. He believed his new Perfect Form could tank it without being ready for whatever the multiplier was. Hence why it nearly killed him. Had Cell been at full power he would tank it no problem. We've already seen what enormous gaps between said power levels can do; Imperfect Cell vs Kamiccolo comes to mind.

 

[Papasmurf]

I wasn't referring to the Final Flash example and addressed it when you brought it up. The point I was making was that despite Vegeta's presence he did nothing to guard himself from a possible attack by him or Piccolo and the others, and that Gohan was caught off guard while seeing the path of Cell's attack as well. What I was curious to know is why you feel Goku hitting Gero in the face while he was in the middle of firing an attack at another direction is different from the others.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

We've already seen what enormous gaps between said power levels can do; Imperfect Cell was Kamiccolo comes to mind.

We've also seen what they can't do, many examples of which have been posted in this thread.

I agree that he would have tanked it no problem at full power, but as far as I can tell, that's what we've been arguing. #20 was off-guard, so he doesn't defend with his full durability, so his head gets knocked back. He didn't receive anything close to an actual injury (unlike Cell, who got a hole in his chest). What's the problem?

 

[Kyo]

I would agree had Krilin actually asked that question "Are you ready to take on someone stronger than Freeza?" But he doesn't ask that. He says that Cell is more terrible than Freeza and asks if that scares him or not. It's said in a way that that someone before that had not surpassed Freeza. Saying "This thing is even stronger than that android you fought, does that excite you or scare you? Now that would make complete sense and would be the perfect way to hype up Cell. It would almost be like hyping up Beerus by saying he is even stronger than Cell instead of saying he is stronger than Boo. It just doesn't make much sense in the context of the whole situation.

If Kuririn actually asked directly "Are you ready to take on someone stronger than Freeza?" then yeah it's immediately a throwaway statement (that's what I got from your post, anyway). I wish Kuririn had been more direct with what he said, but he just wasn't. Plus, like I said, I'd have most likely agreed with Freeza > 19/20 had it not been for evidence on their side (e.g. 19 post's ability to draw blood from Vegeta, Piccolo's statement on 20 post) that leads me to reevaluate everything.

Even if you want to take the word terrible to not just power, 19 and 20 are more terrible than Freeza anyway. 20 immediately tried to kill yamcha and they made it very clear they were planning on killing Goku and the Z fighters right away. Freeza toyed and never showed his full power until the very end.

I disagree. Freeza wanted planetary destruction and possibly universal domination. 20 wanted revenge on one person. We could go back and forth on this all day btw. It's subjective to us and it's subjective to the Z fighters, but since I've already explained why I find Kuririn talking about power straight-up to be weird, this is what I choose to go with instead.

I also said that it does have to be related to power to some extent or else Goku would have no reason to be afraid. Even if 19/20 were actually weaker than Freeza, asking "this guy's stronger than Freeza, does that scare/excite you?" is a pointless question anyway as I pointed out earlier: we already know the answer. Which is why I said that Kuririn is more saying that Cell's challenge to the current Z fighters will be worse than Freeza's challenge to the Z fighters on Namek. And he's right, seeing as how Goku could actually challenge Freeza back then, while no one can even challenge the androids, let alone a Cell who achieves his goal of becoming perfect.

19 and 20 would logicallly be used to add effect to the dire situation by Tien, Kami, and Clearin because that would make the most sense. When you're trying to hype up how strong a villain is, you use the second strongest villain as a comparison naturally. What purpose is there to use a villain that is far weaker?

Your last question, again, would apply even if 19/20 were weaker than Freeza. Freeza is nothing right now. He was offed by Trunks in no time. Trunks was weaker than Goku. Goku trained for 3 years. It makes zero sense to ask Goku if he's ready for someone stronger than Freeza. Of course he is. The statement isn't a simple "Cell > Freeza, are you ready?" in my opinion.

As for Tien and Kami's statements. Tien was talking about Trunks, so he just brought up Trunks's last milestone. There is nothing else to compare Trunks to, all Trunks has done so far is kill Freeza. Same goes for Kami. Plus, saying something like "they beat even Vegeta who was able to beat 19" has little significance on the casual reader since 19 has pretty much always been a non-threat (given the time he showed vs. the time Freeza was at large). It's worth considering sometimes that Toriyama's not writing the story for power level freaks like us (I probably sound hypocritical as hell saying that but whatever).

Android 20 was moved from Base Goku's punch. That makes them pretty weak to begin with

He didn't expect the punch.

If you hear someone screaming in the distance, you look to find out what it is. It doesn't mean you instantly brace yourself.

What are ya arguing? You just debunked your own point here.

Has this turned into a off-guard/on-guard shebang? Looks like it. Gero was off-guard. Period. Come the fuck at me. No homo. Krillin

 

[kriss-]

I fetched the scan and 20s first hit was directly at Goku. Of course he would expect him to retaliate. It would be illogical to expect otherwise.

Either:

a) 20 didn't think the Z Fighters would attack them when they were killing hundreds if not, thousands of people.

b) 20 attacked Goku first and continued his assault, with the expectation that one of the Z-FIghters would do something.

Which is more logical.

 

[kriss-]

Kyo, what the hells up your ass?

 

[Kyo]

I shove a broom up my ass because I can't get a job otherwise. I tend to keep it there so I don't forget it.

Don't take it personally. I was just wondering what you meant by, "If you hear someone screaming in the distance, you look to find out what it is. It doesn't mean you instantly brace yourself." Doesn't that go against your idea that 20 pre-absorptions is weak?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

kyouks i un-done the evil rep

 

[Kyo]

why

 

[Fantastische Hure]

bcoz i likes u :$ :$ :$

 

[Papasmurf]

Kyo, what the hells up your ass?

This statement is preciously ironic.

 

[Southern Gothic]

kyouks i un-done the evil rep

I did it toooooooooooooo!

 

[Kyo]

It's just a wooden broom.

edit: sg i will undo you