Is this proof that Freeza>19?

[kriss-]

I shove a broom up my ass because I can't get a job otherwise. I tend to keep it there so I don't forget it.

Don't take it personally. I was just wondering what you meant by, "If you hear someone screaming in the distance, you look to find out what it is. It doesn't mean you instantly brace yourself." Doesn't that go against your idea that 20 pre-absorptions is weak?

Point being, when Dodoria heard Gohan it doesn't mean Dodoria went to full power. That makes no sense. Pyrus was arguing that so I countered him.

 

[Papasmurf]

Dodoria doesn't even know how to suppress his ki.

 

[FutureProtagonist]

I fetched the scan and 20s first hit was directly at Goku. Of course he would expect him to retaliate. It would be illogical to expect otherwise.

Either:

a) 20 didn't think the Z Fighters would attack them when they were killing hundreds if not, thousands of people.

b) 20 attacked Goku first and continued his assault, with the expectation that one of the Z-FIghters would do something.

Which is more logical.

You must have missed the part where he fired again.

 

[kriss-]

Dodoria doesn't even know how to suppress his ki.

Why did Nappa's Chi appear to increase when he powered up? Kaboom explained it nicely. Your point doesn't change much.

 

[Southern Gothic]

It's just a wooden broom.

edit: sg i will undo you

Dun u dare! My rep is closely linked to my personal self esteem!

Question: Weren't Gero's bots observing the Mecha Freeza situation? He should have a clear indication of how powerful Freeza is, so why would he make an Android weaker than that?

Just wondering.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

t0sh

 

[kriss-]

I fetched the scan and 20s first hit was directly at Goku. Of course he would expect him to retaliate. It would be illogical to expect otherwise.

Either:

a) 20 didn't think the Z Fighters would attack them when they were killing hundreds if not, thousands of people.

b) 20 attacked Goku first and continued his assault, with the expectation that one of the Z-FIghters would do something.

Which is more logical.

You must have missed the part where he fired again.

Okay, I'm not sure what your saying. Please explain it for me.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

t0sh u are ok

 

[Kyo]

@SG: Gero was unaware of Freeza's existence himself, the bots only got Freeza's cells for Cell. It's a very strange situation but Gero, contrary to his scientific self, seemed to be content with ignoring everything after the Goku/Vegeta fight since he determined that Goku had hit his prime there.

@t0sh: Question. 20 expected and braced himself for a punch at that moment. True or False?
20 was unimpressed by a further powered up Goku. True or False?

 

[Papasmurf]

Dodoria doesn't even know how to suppress his ki.

Why did Nappa's Chi appear to increase when he powered up? Kaboom explained it nicely. Your point doesn't change much.

I am aware of the age-old argument that they can still choose to utilize more of their ki. But I'm reminding you of the fact that he can't consciously lower his ki like Ginyu and Freeza can, and a Fat Boo that already powered up multiple times to battle Dabra, Gohan and Vegeta was still knocked a mile away by a mere Super Saiyan Trunks' kick. The suppression argument only runs so far.

 

[kriss-]

This is why I sometimes hate debating. 5 nerds sit in front of their computer and press the F5 button. Eventually there are so many arguments that I can't respond to them all at the same time.

True.
Gero being unimpressed by Base Goku doesn't change the fact he thought he could destroy Goku no matter what. It wasn't until Goku went Super Saiyan did things change. I'm not seeing your point here.

@Kenshi, I'll try to find Kabooms reasoning for you. Trust me, the guys a genius and it explains it nicely.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

This is why I sometimes hate debating. 5 nerds sit in front of their computer and press the F5 button. Eventually there are so many arguments that I can't respond to them all at the same time.

i didn't say anything

 

[kriss-]

This is why I sometimes hate debating. 5 nerds sit in front of their computer and press the F5 button. Eventually there are so many arguments that I can't respond to them all at the same time.

i didn't say anything

You're not debating. You're kind of just floating around in the middle as people argue. Like a child with a bad family.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

This is why I sometimes hate debating. 5 nerds sit in front of their computer and press the F5 button. Eventually there are so many arguments that I can't respond to them all at the same time.

i didn't say anything

You're not debating. You're kind of just floating around in the middle as people argue. Like a child with a bad family.

i'm sry

i don't want to be evil to u tho

 

[Kyo]

True.
Gero being unimpressed by Base Goku doesn't change the fact he thought he could destroy Goku no matter what. It wasn't until Goku went Super Saiyan did things change. I'm not seeing your point here.

How?

Well..yeah. If he's unimpressed by Base Goku then of course he'll think he could destroy Goku. My point is that he never talks about his expectations being exceeded until Goku goes SSJ. Even when Goku did go SSJ and he talks about his expectations, he thinks he's still okay. The fact that he doesn't even bring anything up against Base Goku kinda makes it iffy that Goku could be even remotely comparable to 20 in base.

Question. How do 19 and 20 compare prior to absorptions?

 

[kriss-]

True.
Gero being unimpressed by Base Goku doesn't change the fact he thought he could destroy Goku no matter what. It wasn't until Goku went Super Saiyan did things change. I'm not seeing your point here.

How?

Well..yeah. If he's unimpressed by Base Goku then of course he'll think he could destroy Goku. My point is that he never talks about his expectations being exceeded until Goku goes SSJ. Even when Goku did go SSJ and he talks about his expectations, he thinks he's still okay. The fact that he doesn't even bring anything up against Base Goku kinda makes it iffy that Goku could be even remotely comparable to 20 in base.

Question. How do 19 and 20 compare prior to absorptions?

Characters greatly exceeding their own potential is not a new theme in Dragonball Z.

Anyways, IMO 19 made himself stronger, it's the only logical conclusion. A scientist creating something greater then himself -when his entire mission is base around beating Goku, makes no sense. But them being weaker than Frieza prior to absorbing energy does.

 

[Southern Gothic]

This is why I sometimes hate debating. 5 nerds sit in front of their computer and press the F5 button. Eventually there are so many arguments that I can't respond to them all at the same time.

True.
Gero being unimpressed by Base Goku doesn't change the fact he thought he could destroy Goku no matter what. It wasn't until Goku went Super Saiyan did things change. I'm not seeing your point here.

I'm on a Galaxy, so I don’t have an F5 button. But boy do you make me long for one.

Who's a nerd?!?!

Kyo, I can see that. I still get stuck with a couple problems hanging 19 below Freeza. For one, in the situation we mentioned, Gero should still be able to read Freeza's battle power. I agree that he did seem to disregard Goku after the Vegeta fight...doesn't pain Gero in the best light.

Freeza was basically swept away by Trunks. By the time the androids show up, he, Goku and Vegeta should put Freeza and Trunks from that time period to shame. It's hard to imagine 19 lasting through Goku (sick, but still Goku) and to the end semi drawn out bout with Vegeta if he were that far down the foodchain.

The only thing I can think of is that 19 and 20 were relying on the element of surprise, hoping to absorb enough energy to compensate for that before anyone discovered they had that ability.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

t0sh u are ok

still better than pretencious123 tho

 

[Kyo]

Characters greatly exceeding their own potential is not a new theme in Dragonball Z.

Anyways, IMO 19 made himself stronger, it's the only logical conclusion. A scientist creating something greater then himself -when his entire mission is base around beating Goku, makes no sense. But them being weaker than Frieza prior to absorbing energy does.

What's that got to do with anything? I'm aware of that.

So 19 pre < 20 pre. And 20 pre probably isn't even 2x Base Goku if Goku could really move him with that punch or something, right?

 

[Papasmurf]

Just the fact that Vegeta is stated to be inferior to #20 after losing ki to #19 makes it shaky that Freeza would be above #20 pre if I'm being honest.