Misc.

[Papasmurf]

Regardless of the outcome of this debate, my thoughts are that Kaioshin is a

 

[ahill1]

Bobbidi told Fat Boo to kill Kaioshin and Gohan. Therefore, he was trying to kill them.

Did Kid Boo hold-back against Hercule?

Kiai Eyes would decimate any Base Saiyan.

But was still holding back;

Against Hercule I would say yes, since he was still a bit stunned with the other Boo, so he didn't have much time to focus on his punch; but against Vegeta? Nah, there's no proof about it;

I don't think so; enshinhan had already admitted to be useless against the androids and yet his Kikoho was enough to push Semi Cell ... that doesn't mean Tenshinhan > Androids. Kaioshin just pushed Majin Boo, anything beyond that.

I don't think that Kaioshin is able to do this with the Saiyans base, otherwise why he didn't do it with Yakon rather than let Goku taking a chance to fight him? It makes no sense

 

[ahill1]

Regardless of the outcome of this debate, my thoughts are that Kaioshin is a

Agreed.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vegeta being alive is proof of it. Kid Boo easily knocked him out of Super Saiyan 2. If he attacked Vegeta with that same effort he would've been done. You're just picking and choosing what you believe is acceptable instead of looking at the big picture.

We have Bobbidi telling Fat Boo to kill them. So simply put, that's what he was trying to do. He almost killed Gohan and was about to turn Kaioshin into chocolate or candy. He has absolutely no reason to hold-back when he's specifically told to take them out.

Except the Kikoho did nothing but slow Cell down. It's also an entirely different attack than what Kaioshin did.

I already explained why he didn't. Kaioshin never tried to fight until he had no choice. The attack blew Boo back a bit and totally destroyed his blast.

To say it wouldn't work against the Base Saiyans makes no sense whatsoever. If it blew Boo back a bit, it'd obviously be more effective against a far weaker being. Further proof is Fat Boo knocking Kaioshin down with the same attack.

 

[ahill1]

Nah, it's a proof that feats are not so consistents; Semi Cell one shotted #16 while Future Trunks ( 3 years after Cell Games ) did not one shotted Imperfect Cell... going by feats Semi Cell > Future Trunks, which is not true. Base Chibi Trunks was able to survive a punch from Super Boo... by this logic Chibi Trunks should be SSJ3 tier.

Like I said he was still holding back. He only started to show his true power while fighting Vegeta and doing that amazing explosion. Fat Boo ( Powered Up Vs Vegeta ) >> Fat Boo ( Vs Kaioshin and Dabra ) >> Fat Boo ( Initial ).

Kaioshin's assault did not do crap against Fat Boo though. Tenshinhan Kikoho was able to push back Cell.

No that doesn't make sense. Many fans of the Kaioshin try to explain his pathetic performance in Babidi's ship because he is just cautious. Hell, if he is so cautious so why he didn't explode Yakon, since he didn't want Goku take damage? Rather than run the risk of the Saiyans take damage against Yakon, why he didn't kill him instantly? The answer for me is simple: because he couldn't.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Those examples are terrible. Super Saiyan Trunks dropped Future Cell in one punch before tossing him in the air and blowing him up. Simple. Semi-Cell blasted #16 right in the face, which is totally different from punching someone. You've proved absolutely nothing. Super Boo obviously held-back when punched Kid Trunks. Again, simple. You're looking for stuff that isn't there.

Fat Boo didn't hold-back at that level is the point. He beat the crap outta Gohan and Kaioshin at the level he was at. That's what we see.

Kaioshin still destroyed Fat Boo's huge energy attack while in a weakened state that would've taken Gohan into space. The amount of power used to do that would obliterate any Base Saiyan in a matter of seconds.

It has nothing to do with being a Kaioshin fan. We're simply going by what's shown. Why did Kaioshin ultimately decide to attack a more powerful Fat Boo instead of a weaker Pui-Pui? Because he had no choice but to fight Boo.

Unless you're saying Kaioshin can't attack a significantly weaker Pui-Pui with an attack that was capable of destroying Boo's attack. Or even better, Kaioshin couldn't use his Paralysis Arts to stop a much weaker Pui-Pui when he's shown to do it to a far more powerful Super Saiyan 2 Gohan--then it's very clear he didn't fight because he was deferring to the Saiyans.

Saying "he can't" is just plain wrong.

 

[ahill1]

First, Semi Cell used a "generic blast" with is ~ punch. This is irrelevant because Super Boo ( Initial ) > Goku SSJ3... so Chibi Trunks is survived a stronger punch than a SSJ3... hell, these feats show at least that Chibi Trunks base is SSJ2 tier which is not true.

What are you talking about? lol... Fat Boo was still holding back.

Tenshinhan destroyed Bootenks's blast... hell, he could kill Goku SSJ3 lol. Oh and Tenshinha survived a kick from Bootenks. Is he Super Boo level lol.

Kaioshin showed cautious from the start ... he wanted to avoid at all costs that the Saiyans took damage ... so say that he did not quickly defeated the Warriors of Babidi because he wanted to leave it to the Saiyans is just BS. Hell, he even suggested gang up on Yakon, a foe on par with Goku base lol. Damn by this logic Tenshinhan's kikoho could disintegrate Goku SSJ3 since he stopped Bootenks blast.


It doesn't change the fact that Kaioshin shit his pants over what Vegeta did to Pui Pui after already admitting inferiority to Goku, and this can only mean Vegeta base > Goku ( Kaioshin's estimation ) > Kaioshin.

Base Gohan should be above Kaioshin since when Kibito told Gohan that numerous Kaioshins failed to lift the Z sword ( therefore east kaioshin could not do it either ), Gohan tried to do it in base first, which wouldn't make sense if he was weaker than Kaioshin.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Again, your example makes no sense. Super Boo held-back his punch. If it wasn't, Trunks' head would've been knocked off. So Super Boo didn't put his all into the punch. Semi-Cell wanted to see how much power he gained and blasted #16 in the face. Your Trunks example is totally different and irrelevant to the discussion, anyway. Therefore, we can ignore this point.

Fat Boo tried to kill Gohan and he was about to kill Kaioshin before Vegeta intervened. He was still freshly powered-up from his attack on Dabra with nothing remotely implying his power dropped. You're going against something that's directly stated and shown. You're just wrong.

Tien destroyed a blast that was aimed for Dende and Hercule, genius. I didn't know getting knocked out put you on someone's level. That's....really weird logic, but okay.

If it's BS, then you're saying Pui-Pui and Yakon can't be stopped by Kaioshin's Paralysis Arts while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan could? That Kaioshin can't attack them with his Kiai Eyes even though he attacked Fat Boo with it? Is that what you're really trying to say?

Tien destroying an attack meant for Dende doesn't mean much, either. What happened when Gotenks Boo was about to unleash his other attack? Tien admitted that he was too useless to do anything. So clearly the attack used on Hercule and Dende was nothing special, nor does it put his attack on a Super Saiyan 3 level.

Fact: Boo's attack>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan
Fact: Kaioshin destroyed Boo's attack in a weakened state to save Gohan

Prove the Base Saiyans can do anything close to that. I'll wait.

Except that says nothing other than the fact that Base Gohan completely failed at pulling the sword out. Kaioshin said "in all recorded knowledge" no one could lift it. Gohan had to transform to release it, so this point is irrelevant at best. You act like these characters need to rationalize why they do everything. Gohan thought he could release it in Base and was wrong. That's where it ends.

Kaioshin didn't shit his pants over anything Base Vegeta did. He was surprised. Super Saiyan 2 Goku made Kaioshin shit his pants. What you seem to be forgetting is they know the Saiyans can transform. Kaioshin thinks he'll lose, but wants to know how strong Goku is. So he has no idea how strong Goku is.

 

[p123]

How strong can Kaioshin possibly be? SSJ Vegeta level you think?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I can see Kaioshin either being in the middle of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 or in the middle of Piccolo and the Super Saiyans.

Anything less than that would be too weak.

 

[p123]

Yea, I agree with that. It does seem that Super Saiyan 2 is the power that greatly surpasses him. Whether Super Saiyan surpasses his as well is up for debate. Considering Ssj Goku made him back down, it seems likely he's inferior to Super Saiyan power as well even considering Dabura being a SSJ2 level opponent.

He also concedes inferiority when meeting Goku and this is all prior to SSJ2 knowledge.

 

[ahill1]

Again, your example makes no sense. Super Boo held-back his punch. If it wasn't, Trunks' head would've been knocked off. So Super Boo didn't put his all into the punch. Semi-Cell wanted to see how much power he gained and blasted #16 in the face. Your Trunks example is totally different and irrelevant to the discussion, anyway. Therefore, we can ignore this point.

Fat Boo tried to kill Gohan and he was about to kill Kaioshin before Vegeta intervened. He was still freshly powered-up from his attack on Dabra with nothing remotely implying his power dropped. You're going against something that's directly stated and shown. You're just wrong.

Tien destroyed a blast that was aimed for Dende and Hercule, genius. I didn't know getting knocked out put you on someone's level. That's....really weird logic, but okay.

If it's BS, then you're saying Pui-Pui and Yakon can't be stopped by Kaioshin's Paralysis Arts while Super Saiyan 2 Gohan could? That Kaioshin can't attack them with his Kiai Eyes even though he attacked Fat Boo with it? Is that what you're really trying to say?

Tien destroying an attack meant for Dende doesn't mean much, either. What happened when Gotenks Boo was about to unleash his other attack? Tien admitted that he was too useless to do anything. So clearly the attack used on Hercule and Dende was nothing special, nor does it put his attack on a Super Saiyan 3 level.

Fact: Boo's attack>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gohan
Fact: Kaioshin destroyed Boo's attack in a weakened state to save Gohan

Prove the Base Saiyans can do anything close to that. I'll wait.

Except that says nothing other than the fact that Base Gohan completely failed at pulling the sword out. Kaioshin said "in all recorded knowledge" no one could lift it. Gohan had to transform to release it, so this point is irrelevant at best. You act like these characters need to rationalize why they do everything. Gohan thought he could release it in Base and was wrong. That's where it ends.

Kaioshin didn't shit his pants over anything Base Vegeta did. He was surprised. Super Saiyan 2 Goku made Kaioshin shit his pants. What you seem to be forgetting is they know the Saiyans can transform. Kaioshin thinks he'll lose, but wants to know how strong Goku is. So he has no idea how strong Goku is.

Not my point... Gohan was just told that many Kaioshin along with Kibito himself weren't able to lift the thing out, yet he doesn't go SSJ immediately to try it. Gohan base > Kaioshin. Why try something if you know you will fail miserably? Gohan must have thought he could do something in Base. Wouldn't trying in Base be rhetorical if you know you're weaker than the Kaioshin who have already tried? This point is not irrelevant because Gohan, despite have failed, at least tried in base, something he would not try if he was weaker than Kaioshin, genius.

Did you not read the manga? He was clearly surpised with Vegeta's base power and yet he admitted be inferior to saiyans. Seems obvious to me: Vegeta base > Goku ( Kaaioshin's estimation ) > Kaioshin.

Since base Gohan is stronger than Kaioshin, Piccolo would be way stronger than Kaioshin...

Piccolo >>> base Gohan > base Chibi Trunks > base Goten > Kaioshin IMO.

 

[Pyro]

Kaioshin's a bitch. Boo was toying with his ass, hence why he kept him around yet got angry when Gohan interfered and we saw what happened to that kid. Boo could've easily done that to Kaiboy if he wanted to.

 

[ahill1]

Kaioshin's a bitch. Boo was toying with his ass, hence why he kept him around yet got angry when Gohan interfered and we saw what happened to that kid. Boo could've easily done that to Kaiboy if he wanted to.

You have made a great point about Fat Boo be just messing with Kaioshin and have taken Gohan more seriously, hence why he said with Gohan: " You're not funny ". Do you mind post it here?

 

[ahill1]

IMO " Our dimensions are too different " is based on Piccolo's estimations of Kaioshin, which are implied to be complete overestimations from one of Vegeta's later quotes in which he states that "by his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be an incredibly powerful being". Piccolo was never shown to have sensed Kaioshin's ki during the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, as even Vegeta was unable to sense it, so the only way you could view Piccolo's statement as being truly accurate is if you were to suggest that him having once been God allowed him to sense Kaioshin's ki, and that's just complete speculation. Not only that, but the Kaioshin>Piccolo statement seems to have been retconned, as Goku showed some amazement when hearing the Kaioshins could one-shot Freeza, despite him being told prior to this that Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo. To summarise, it seems that Piccolo and the others completely overestimated Kaioshin.

 

[Pyro]

Kaioshin's a bitch. Boo was toying with his ass, hence why he kept him around yet got angry when Gohan interfered and we saw what happened to that kid. Boo could've easily done that to Kaiboy if he wanted to.

You have made a great point about Fat Boo be just messing with Kaioshin and have taken Gohan more seriously, hence why he said with Gohan: " You're not funny ". Do you mind post it here?

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8812669&t=8428747

Pretty much sums it up.

 

[ahill1]

Yea, this seal the deal for me. Piccolo > base saiyans > Kaioshin.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Except you can't prove Gohan was under the impression that his Base was stronger than Kaioshin. He also couldn't lift it, so it doesn't matter. If Gohan can't even sense him, how would he know he's stronger than Kaioshin? In what possible way can he compare himself to Kaioshin to be under that impression.

Kaioshin said no one has ever been able to move it in all recorded knowledge with Kibito saying he and countless Kaioshin's were never able to release it. So yeah, according to this, Base Gohan>>>>South Kaioshin when using your flawless logic. Yeah? Yeah? No.

So Base Gohan is nothing. It has absolutely nothing to do with how he compares to Kaioshin. And on top of that, he fails to move the sword, which means this point is irrelevant. Moving on.

Being surprised doesn't mean anything. He didn't even show that much surprise when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2, nor was there any surprise when Goku turned Super Saiyan and surpassed the guy he thought they'd need to fight together. Clearly Base Vegeta>Super Saiyan Goku. Not. Kaioshin was taking Goku's Super Saiyan into consideration when he said what he said because he's aware they can transform to gain power.

Base Gohan isn't stronger than Kaioshin, nor is Piccolo. You got that all wrong.

Kaioshin>Piccolo>Freeza>Base Saiyans

Base Saiyans are hella overrated.

 

[ahill1]

Except you can't prove Gohan was under the impression that his Base was stronger than Kaioshin. He also couldn't lift it, so it doesn't matter. If Gohan can't even sense him, how would he know he's stronger than Kaioshin? In what possible way can he compare himself to Kaioshin to be under that impression.

Kaioshin said no one has ever been able to move it in all recorded knowledge with Kibito saying he and countless Kaioshin's were never able to release it. So yeah, according to this, Base Gohan>>>>South Kaioshin when using your flawless logic. Yeah? Yeah? No.

So Base Gohan is nothing. It has absolutely nothing to do with how he compares to Kaioshin. And on top of that, he fails to move the sword, which means this point is irrelevant. Moving on.

Being surprised doesn't mean anything. He didn't even show that much surprise when Gohan went Super Saiyan 2, nor was there any surprise when Goku turned Super Saiyan and surpassed the guy he thought they'd need to fight together. Clearly Base Vegeta>Super Saiyan Goku. Not. Kaioshin was taking Goku's Super Saiyan into consideration when he said what he said because he's aware they can transform to gain power.

Base Gohan isn't stronger than Kaioshin, nor is Piccolo. You got that all wrong.

Kaioshin>Piccolo>Freeza>Base Saiyans

Base Saiyans are hella overrated.

Still wrong... Gohan could judge Kaioshin's strength base on his movements against Fat Boo, like Vegeta dis with #19. He doesn't need to sense Kaioshin's strength to know his power.

Nope, because Gohan did not know how strong South Kaioshin was; hell, you don't even know if South Kaioshin tried to move the sword.

Yea, base Gohan is something... probably stronger than Kaioshin. Like I said the fact that he failed doesn't matter since Gohan at least tried it. Why try something if you know you will fail miserably? Gohan must have thought he could do something in Base.

Hence why I think there was a retcon... Kaioshin is indifferent with Gohan SSJ2's power while he's totally amazed with Vegeta base's strength.

Piccolo > base saiyans > Kaioshin IMO.

Like p123 pointed out have base Saiyans < Freeza is ridiculous.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Lol, what movement? Did Kaioshin throw a punch? No. Did Kaioshin throw a kick? No. Did Kaioshin use a Kiai Eyes while standing? Yes. Does that fall under movement? Absolutely not. Vegeta actually saw #19 beat Goku down. How is this comparable?

So again, what is Gohan judging Kaioshin on to gauge his strength? Because it sure as hell ain't movement.

None of the statements ever say Kaioshin himself tried. Post the quote if it exists. The only thing we know is Kibito and numerous Kaioshin have failed at trying to release it. At no point is Kaioshin ever mentioned at trying to move it. If you're going to sneakily try to throw him into the mix, then South Kaioshin can be thrown in as well.

That requires nothing other than Gohan to overestimate his strength in Base form. He couldn't lift it, making this point irrelevant.

Kaioshin isn't bewildered by Super Saiyan Goku's power, either. Was there a retcon there, too?

Only Super Saiyan 2 Goku's Burst against Yakon completely blew Kaioshin away. In the very next chapter, he goes into detail about the Saiyans being incredible because they can do what Goku just did to Yakon. So much for Base Vegeta being so much stronger when that wasn't a factor in the mind when all was said and done.

Kaioshin>Piccolo>Base Saiyans