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FutureProtagonist

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One more thing you have to consider is that both Dabra and Babidi were certain that both Yakon and Pui Pui were going to dominate the whole the whole group. Base Goku easily kept up with the former, and Vegeta murked the latter.

Now either you have to assume that neither of them have any idea how strong Kaioshin is, unlikely since Kaioshin knows how strong Dabra is, and Babidi should have knowledge of them from his father, (or if you buy modern Tori, himself) or Pui Pui and Yakon can beat Kaioshin.

There is direct evidence that Dabra knows how strong Kaioshin is:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1
Dabra: “Even if Kaioshin comes, he can’t do anything as long as I’m here…â€￾
 

Evil Vegeta

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They greatly overestimated their capabilities considering how badly they failed. Both Bobbidi and Dabra overestimated just about everything when you think about it. We're talking about guys who thought the Base Saiyans and the equivalent of 100 humans (that would be as strong as whatever was roaming the earth 300 yrs ago when Dabra checked) would get Boo's meter up to the max. They're kinda clueless about everything.

If we go by Kaioshin's showings, he has all that's necessary to take both Pui-Pui and Yakon down with ease. This just gets lost with the dialogue in Bobbidi's ship.

I wouldn't say Kaioshin knows exactly how strong Dabra is. It looks to me like he's judging him strictly on being #1 in the Demon Realm. He goes from being unsure that they can handle Dabra to being calmed by Goku once he tells him Dabra isn't all that. All Kaioshin tells us is that one of them (Saiyans) is the strongest in that world and Dabra is the strongest in his world. Outside of that, it doesn't really tell us anything.

Wasn't this right after he saw Kaioshin back down from someone they saw reach 3,000 kiri? Dabra doesn't have to have an exact measurement of his power. He can't sense power. Kaioshin's capabilities can be assessed in other ways that'll lead him to that conclusion.

Dabra, after fighting Gohan and being just as winded as him, thinks he'll have no issue taking out trash like that just because he said so. It's not a stretch for the character to talk out of his ass.
 

FutureProtagonist

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They greatly overestimated their capabilities considering how badly they failed. Both Bobbidi and Dabra overestimated just about everything when you think about it. We're talking about guys who thought the Base Saiyans and the equivalent of 100 humans (that would be as strong as whatever was roaming the earth 300 yrs ago when Dabra checked) would get Boo's meter up to the max. They're kinda clueless about everything.
That's just not enough. It would be one thing if Kaioshin easily blew both of those guys away, but we don't, we see him sweating over them though.
If we go by Kaioshin's showings, he has all that's necessary to take both Pui-Pui and Yakon down with ease. This just gets lost with the dialogue in Bobbidi's ship.
What exactly has he done? Freed Gohan from Boo's blast? If that means anything, then how strong is Tenshinhan? After all, Tenshinhan murked a blast from Super Boo. He paralyzes Gohan? Cool, but you have to be able to kill them too. Shot Boo back about three inches? Not impressive.
Dabra, after fighting Gohan and being just as winded as him, thinks he'll have no issue taking out trash like that just because he said so. It's not a stretch for the character to talk out of his ass.
The level of abstraction there is too high to unequivocally say he's talking out of his ass.

As for Dabra, he certainly wasn't worried about Kaioshin when he charged up to finish off the trash, and Kaioshin certainly didn't have an impressive showing there either.
 

Evil Vegeta

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I don't think that means he can't. The Saiyans are calling all the shots and he's playing spectator. Even when he tries to warn Vegeta, Goku grabs him and tells him to chill. He was just not a factor at that point.

What happens when Kaioshin first see's Pui-Pui? Totally ignores him. He began to sweat when he thought Vegeta was being too carefree about the situation. Yakon? Kaioshin thinks they need to fight together out of precaution. When Goku loses his Super Saiyan, Gohan actually thinks he'll have to fight with Goku to beat Yakon. Not sure how strong Yakon is. We just know he's way above Pui-Pui.

Kaioshin was able to totally stop Super Saiyan 2 Gohan with his technique. If he can stop a far more powerful Gohan, would he not be able to stop someone like Pui-Pui? Why didn't he try? Because he wasn't fighting. Or do you think Pui-Pui is too powerful for Kaioshin to restrict him? This is why the "he never did it because he can't" doesn't make much sense.

Tien murked a blast that was aimed at Dende, Kaioshin after nearly getting the life crushed out of him, stopped a blast that was going to take Gohan somewhere in space. We see Tien bitch out rather quickly when Gotenks Boo gets ready to use his other attack, so. I'd say Kaioshin had the better save there. You really can't see this attack jacking someone like Pui-Pui up?

What exactly is impressive? Fat Boo barely moved from Gohan's kick. The most impressive attack from a "weakling" was Trunks' kick that sent Boo flying a good distance.

Well, Dabra gave up on damaging Gohan and was trying to take him out rather quickly. I'd say that goes against the idea of Gohan being trash.
 

p123

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Agreed with a lot of what you said EV. Pretty much everything except Freeza > Base Saiyans.
 

FutureProtagonist

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I don't think that means he can't. The Saiyans are calling all the shots and he's playing spectator. Even when he tries to warn Vegeta, Goku grabs him and tells him to chill. He was just not a factor at that point.
Why is he playing spectator? If he thinks the saiyans are screwing up, why doesn't he just call time and the fight himself? He tried to do that after the Majin Vegeta incident, but what's turned him into such a bumbler now? Why is he surprised that Vegeta can defeat Pui-Pui? Why does he sweat when he sees that they have to fight Yakon?
What happens when Kaioshin first see's Pui-Pui? Totally ignores him. He began to sweat when he thought Vegeta was being too carefree about the situation. Yakon? Kaioshin thinks they need to fight together out of precaution. When Goku loses his Super Saiyan, Gohan actually thinks he'll have to fight with Goku to beat Yakon. Not sure how strong Yakon is. We just know he's way above Pui-Pui.
Yakon is enough to make Kaioshin worried even before the fight begins, Yakon is expected to defeat the entire group instantly by Babidi and Dabra, and it seems that he's somewhere in the realm of base Goku's level of power.
Tien murked a blast that was aimed at Dende, Kaioshin after nearly getting the life crushed out of him, stopped a blast that was going to take Gohan somewhere in space. We see Tien bitch out rather quickly when Gotenks Boo gets ready to use his other attack, so. I'd say Kaioshin had the better save there. You really can't see this attack jacking someone like Pui-Pui up?
Not particularly, no. Interrupting another blast (that Boo's basically forgotten about) just isn't impressive and its effect on Fat Boo was absolutely pathetic, especially for a kiai type attack. Tenshinhan did more against 2nd form Cell, and Gohan's kicked knocked him back a lot further. Tenshinhan was able to interrupt Boo's attack because it was a careless attack that he had fired and forgot about, same goes for the attack that Boo used against Gohan. That should be what determines how easily it can be interrupted. It was the timing, not the attack IMO. Do you think that Kaioshin could block an earnest attack from Boo? Nah, he'd bitch out just like Ten.
What exactly is impressive? Fat Boo barely moved from Gohan's kick. The most impressive attack from a "weakling" was Trunks' kick that sent Boo flying a good distance.
Gohan's showing was unimpressive too (better than Kaioshin's though, Kaioshin is dead weight, literally), but we've got other things that tell us how strong he is. Kaioshin just has this nebulous ability to push Boo a little and nothing more. The only good move he's got is the paralysis technique, which as far as I can tell, can't kill. He's basically just a Gurd, using his magic/mind powers to hang in there with people much stronger.
 

ahill1

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Thank you FutureProtagonist. I don't have to say what you just said. FutureProtagonist is probably right Evil Vegeta.

And I wanted to add that Fat Buu was just playing with Kaioshin. Babidi even said to Boo quit fooling around and get it over with kaioshit. Fat probably only took Gohan seriously, since when the latter was about to prevent Kaioshin's death, Boo said: "you're not fun".
 

Evil Vegeta

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Why is he playing spectator? If he thinks the saiyans are screwing up, why doesn't he just call time and the fight himself? He tried to do that after the Majin Vegeta incident, but what's turned him into such a bumbler now? Why is he surprised that Vegeta can defeat Pui-Pui? Why does he sweat when he sees that they have to fight Yakon?

He's playing spectator because he's following their lead at that point. He told them to not go inside of the ship and they went in anyway. What does he do right after that? Follow them even though he wanted to stay outside. He even says "I can't abandon you to your own idiocy", but it's very clear that Kaioshin is not in control of anything at this point.

We see a drastic change in Kaioshin from the Budokai to Bobbidi's ship. The entire character is shifted from mysterious to a little pussy. All this means is he's become a bitch, not a weakling like many want to think.

Yakon is enough to make Kaioshin worried even before the fight begins, Yakon is expected to defeat the entire group instantly by Babidi and Dabra, and it seems that he's somewhere in the realm of base Goku's level of power.

Precaution. This says it all:

Kaioshin: "He is being stupid!! Why do you all insist on fighting alone?! This isn't a game!!!"

Super Saiyan Goku would kick the everlasting shit outta Yakon if he wanted. Super Saiyan 2 Gohan would do even worse things than Goku. Both of them fighting together? Lights out, literally. Kaioshin is being completely cautious the entire time and doesn't want to take any chances. Basically, he's pissed that they're not being as serious about the situation as he is.That's how it appears to me.

Come on. Even you have to admit that if Kaioshin was accurately attuned with the situation at hand, he'd have nothing to worry about. He's not. Instead, Kaioshin is reduced to an emotional and extra worrywart over the possibility of Boo being revived. All logic is thrown out of the window once you start reading into everything Kaioshin says.

Not particularly, no. Interrupting another blast (that Boo's basically forgotten about) just isn't impressive and its effect on Fat Boo was absolutely pathetic, especially for a kiai type attack.

Why does it matter if Boo forgot or not? It wasn't a concentrated attack like a Kamehameha or a beam. The attack was meant to take Gohan far into space and kill him in the process. When you take into consideration that Kaioshin is nearly unconscious, then yes, it's indeed impressive. He destroyed the entire attack. And all Kiai based attacks aren't the same.

Tenshinhan did more against 2nd form Cell

So rapidly blasting someone (and nearly killing himself) with a ridiculously OP concentrated technique is comparable to a single glare from the eyes?

and Gohan's kicked knocked him back a lot further.

Because Boo wasn't paying attention to him. Kaioshin had no other choice but to directly attack Boo. Not to mention Kaioshin's Shockwave was enough to smack Boo before he begins his assault.

Tenshinhan was able to interrupt Boo's attack because it was a careless attack that he had fired and forgot about, same goes for the attack that Boo used against Gohan.

How did he forget when he immediately has a ?! reaction upon seeing it stopped? Furthermore, he makes it a point to "get rid of the imp", which means the attack doesn't even need to have much power.

That should be what determines how easily it can be interrupted. It was the timing, not the attack IMO. Do you think that Kaioshin could block an earnest attack from Boo? Nah, he'd bitch out just like Ten.

Maybe not, but that doesn't take away from what we see. Fat Boo's attack on Gohan was meant to kill, and it surely would've if Kaioshin didn't completely blow it up with his eyes.

Gohan's showing was unimpressive too (better than Kaioshin's though, Kaioshin is dead weight, literally), but we've got other things that tell us how strong he is.

Neither had a great performance, but the attack that would've undoubtedly ended the other was stopped by a weakened Kaioshin. Are those others things how he acts on Bobbidi's ship? Because that's iffy at best.

Kaioshin just has this nebulous ability to push Boo a little and nothing more.

The only takeaway here is that Kaioshin's abilities are nothing to Fat Boo. Pretty sure Piccolo, the Super Saiyans, and Pui-Pui would be in the same boat, no? This isn't really a knock on Kaioshin.

The only good move he's got is the paralysis technique, which as far as I can tell, can't kill.

The other good move is his Kiai Eyes, which as far as I can tell, can completely destroy an attack from Majin Boo. What would it do to someone as weak as Pui-Pui? Or Piccolo? Or Yakon? Based on how much stronger Fat Boo is compared to those stooges, it'd do hella more damage and would probably blow them to pieces.

He's basically just a Gurd, using his magic/mind powers to hang in there with people much stronger.

Kaioshin only used his Paralysis Arts once last time I checked.
 

Pyro

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Kaioshin's attacks did nothing but budge Boo's head back an inch or two at best.
 

Evil Vegeta

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There's nothing else to judge him on.

Destroying Boo's attack is apparently useless.

Being able to stop Gohan makes him a pseudo version of Gurd.

Being more powerful than Piccolo is something people can't seem to accept. No matter how many sources verify this. So nothing there.

Being reluctant to attack Pui-Pui or Yakon somehow means both of them are above him.

What else is there to go by?
 

Pyro

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I don't have all the answers. I just don't take his fight with Boo seriously, at least in comparison to the other shit we've got. I'm good with him being stronger than Piccolo, but the exaggeration of his Boo encounter to make him near Super Saiyan 2 level is what makes little sense to me. Not saying you're guilty of that, but it's what I see mostly on Neo.
 

Evil Vegeta

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I feel you. Super Saiyan 2 is too high. I usually have him either in-between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, or Piccolo and the Super Saiyans. Kaioshin's just pretty hard to gauge for the most part.

As long as he's above Piccolo, it's all good.
 

FutureProtagonist

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How did he forget when he immediately has a ?! reaction upon seeing it stopped? Furthermore, he makes it a point to "get rid of the imp", which means the attack doesn't even need to have much power.
He wasn't worried about the attack potentially being stopped.
Why does it matter if Boo forgot or not? It wasn't a concentrated attack like a Kamehameha or a beam. The attack was meant to take Gohan far into space and kill him in the process. When you take into consideration that Kaioshin is nearly unconscious, then yes, it's indeed impressive. He destroyed the entire attack. And all Kiai based attacks aren't the same.
So, when Kaioshin is fine and healthy, he knocks Boo back a few inches, when he's near unconscious, he easily destroys a super-powerful attack from him. How exactly does that make sense unless it's simply really easy to destroy attacks with kiais? There's even evidence for that particular thing. The only comparable situation is Tenshinhan destroying Boo's blast, and they're ridiculously far apart. Without any apples-to-apples comparisons, that's what we're stuck with. Using the attack to say anything else is just pure conjecture.
So rapidly blasting someone (and nearly killing himself) with a ridiculously OP concentrated technique is comparable to a single glare from the eyes?
When one fighter is 1000 times weaker (or whatever) than the other in one situation, and allegedly about 3-4 times weaker in the other situation, why not? That should be fairly equitable IMO. The attack had about as much effect as Boo as one single Kikoho had on Cell. That's absolutely pathetic.
Because Boo wasn't paying attention to him. Kaioshin had no other choice but to directly attack Boo. Not to mention Kaioshin's Shockwave was enough to smack Boo before he begins his assault.
The only reason Kaioshin got any hits on Boo was because Boo was toying with him. He sure didn't toy with Gohan though.
Neither had a great performance, but the attack that would've undoubtedly ended the other was stopped by a weakened Kaioshin. Are those others things how he acts on Bobbidi's ship? Because that's iffy at best.
Kaioshin is so much of a weakling that Gohan grabs him and drags him along instead of letting him fly on his own; he's nothing more than a liability to Gohan.
The other good move is his Kiai Eyes, which as far as I can tell, can completely destroy an attack from Majin Boo. What would it do to someone as weak as Pui-Pui? Or Piccolo? Or Yakon? Based on how much stronger Fat Boo is compared to those stooges, it'd do hella more damage and would probably blow them to pieces.
I don't know. Can you provide any examples of attacks being destroyed that would indicate a certain power is necessary to do that?

The Kiai eyes seemed basically like needles that popped Boo's attack (like a balloon); given how easy it was, it likely wasn't particularly stable anyway.
Kaioshin only used his Paralysis Arts once last time I checked.
Sure. What does that have to do with anything? Gurd only used his paralysis arts once too. That's still his only impressive move. Kiai eyes are absolutely pathetic against a real opponent.

Your thought process seems to just be "he blew up the attack, so that must make him strong", but our only comparable situation is one where a vastly weaker fighter pops the strong fighter's attack in much the same way.
 

Evil Vegeta

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He wasn't worried about the attack potentially being stopped.

Not worried. Just wondering who blew it up.

So, when Kaioshin is fine and healthy, he knocks Boo back a few inches, when he's near unconscious, he easily destroys a super-powerful attack from him.

Fat Boo is a lot harder to affect than his attack.

How exactly does that make sense unless it's simply really easy to destroy attacks with kiais? There's even evidence for that particular thing. The only comparable situation is Tenshinhan destroying Boo's blast, and they're ridiculously far apart. Without any apples-to-apples comparisons, that's what we're stuck with. Using the attack to say anything else is just pure conjecture.

But as shown, the attack doesn't need to have that much power behind it. Only enough to blow Dende up. That's vastly different from what Kaioshin did to save Gohan.

Also, we've seen what Boo can do to Kaioshin with this attack. It knocks him down and he never gets up from it. So it's not like we have no idea of what the attack can do. Now if you think Pui-Pui is that superior to Kaioshin, then yeah, the attack won't do nothing. If you think Kaioshin is superior to Pui-Pui, the attack would easily wreck him.

When one fighter is 1000 times weaker (or whatever) than the other in one situation, and allegedly about 3-4 times weaker in the other situation, why not? That should be fairly equitable IMO. The attack had about as much effect as Boo as one single Kikoho had on Cell. That's absolutely pathetic.

If we're going to write that off as pathetic, then that's fine. At least we agree that Gohan and Dabra's efforts were just as pathetic as Kaioshin's. So this leaves us nowhere in our assessment of Kaioshin. Being unable to stop Boo in itself isn't pathetic.

The only reason Kaioshin got any hits on Boo was because Boo was toying with him. He sure didn't toy with Gohan though.

Boo knocked Gohan down and quickly turned his sights to Kaioshin. After being smacked by his attack, he smashes his face together and knocks him down. Boo then goes down to continue and knocks Kaioshin down with his own technique. Before Kaioshin can even recover, Boo quickly butt-slams the fuck outta Kaioshin. If anything, that looks worse than what he did to Gohan--who was down in a single attack. and ignored right after

Kaioshin landed his attacks because Boo was opened. Useless, but it happened.

Kaioshin is so much of a weakling that Gohan grabs him and drags him along instead of letting him fly on his own; he's nothing more than a liability to Gohan.

I'm not disagreeing. Still, this doesn't tell us anything other than what we already know.

don't know. Can you provide any examples of attacks being destroyed that would indicate a certain power is necessary to do that?

Can't really think of one that precisely answers the question. However, we're often told when someone is too weak to stop something.

Tien stops Gotenks Boo's blast, then bitches out when Boo is about to unleash his other attack. Tien admits that their "dimensions are too different" and that he's useless like this is a surprise or something. It tells us that Tien didn't think much of Gotenks Boo's blast used against Dende. If he did, seems kinda odd that he'd admit he's useless when a more powerful attack is being produced. I dunno. None of this stuff makes much sense when I think about it.

The Kiai eyes seemed basically like needles that popped Boo's attack (like a balloon); given how easy it was, it likely wasn't particularly stable anyway.

Kaioshin certainly didn't make it look easy. Looked to me like he put everything into that attack just to blow it up.

Sure. What does that have to do with anything? Gurd only used his paralysis arts once too. That's still his only impressive move.

Gurd's Time Stop was actually impressive as well, but it had a limit.

Kiai eyes are absolutely pathetic against a real opponent.

Boo's use of said technique on Kaioshin disagrees with that notion. It can do serious damage against a real opponent.

Your thought process seems to just be "he blew up the attack, so that must make him strong", but our only comparable situation is one where a vastly weaker fighter pops the strong fighter's attack in much the same way.

Then we're back to square.1 on Kaioshin. The guys power simply cannot be assessed in the story.

There's nothing concrete about Kaioshin outside of what Piccolo says. Once that's deemed as an incorrect statement by most, we're debating on a complete unknown. The only thing we factually know is Kaioshin>Freeza.

Now if we look at the history of Paralysis Arts, it has a limit when there's too much of a difference in power. Chaozu couldn't stop Nappa, but Gurd could stop Gohan and Krillin.

Kaioshin says it was hard stopping Gohan, so we know it takes effort. Would this imply there isn't a substantial difference between Kaioshin and Gohan?
 

p123

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Yea Kaioshin is a mystery. One factor no one is considering is what about the other Kai's? Do we really think East Kaioshin is a hundred fold weaker? I don't think that makes sense. He's the weakest but he's not straight shit.

And there's no way I'm making South Kaioshin too weak. South Kaioshin is a beast in my book, almost being competitive with Dabura.

So I factor that in as well.


Dabura > South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin > West Kaioshin > North Kaioshin > East Kaioshin

All in relatively recent spacing.


600 > 500 > 400 > 300 > 200 > 150
 

Pyro

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Older Kai thought he was nothing special and pathetic for a Kaioshin
 

ahill1

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p123 said:
Yea Kaioshin is a mystery. One factor no one is considering is what about the other Kai's? Do we really think East Kaioshin is a hundred fold weaker? I don't think that makes sense. He's the weakest but he's not straight shit.

And there's no way I'm making South Kaioshin too weak. South Kaioshin is a beast in my book, almost being competitive with Dabura.

So I factor that in as well.


Dabura > South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin > West Kaioshin > North Kaioshin > East Kaioshin

All in relatively recent spacing.


600 > 500 > 400 > 300 > 200 > 150
p123, what is precisely the reason you go with a " rage boost " for Gohan in the Cell Games?
 

ahill1

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Why do you have Piccolo (Trunks arc) only at 66% of Vegeta (Trunks arc)? I don' t think it's implied that Vegeta could one shot Piccolo.
 

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