Piccolo (Post-RoSaT) > 50% MSSJ Goku?

[SSJ2]

Unless you want to argue that Post KHH Goku or Post Ki Barrage Goku is not superior to Vegeta, I think this is checkmate.

Post Ki Barrage Goku is the same Goku who gets tooled by a Cell Junior that Vegeta can fight evenly with, so yeah..

I think Goku was losing power constantly after he lost his aura.

 

[Future Warrior]

Nice breakdown. I feel Piccolo should be a above or at least equal to 50% Goku. It just fits. Piccolo comes back from the RoSaT with power stronger than even Goku, but he somehow knows that what Goku showed at Karin couldn't have been his all. He asks Goku to not play dumb and just admit he doesn't have a prayer against Cell. Goku agreed with him. Trunks then has a suprised look on his face. The way I view Trunks' reaction was him thinking "Holy shit, Piccolo has powered up tremendously from the room, reaching even greater strength than Goku, but he still is fodder to Cell? Cell is more powerful than I could have ever imagined!" And it's important to point out that Trunks was in the mindset that the presumed full power of Goku probably wouldn't have won against Cell.

 

[Pyro]

If you feel that way, you're free to. I don't get that vibe, not when Piccolo was trying not to draw attention to himself in the first place. And I never got the feeling he thought Goku was holding back, not when there was a perfectly good opportunity to say as much and he passed it up.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Fair analysis. You at least have Piccolo above Grade 2 Vegeta. I remember when people didn't even think he surpassed Semi-Cell.

 

[ahill1]

Trunks admitted he was afraid Cell would be "that powerful," although what he was basing that on, I'm really not sure because Goku was still in his resting state at that point; maybe he just figured Cell truly was holding back a lot, and Goku simply confirmed his suspicion. Piccolo recommended Goku use the Room again, and was shocked when Goku declined. Goku proudly proclaimed that he was a lot stronger than Vegeta when Vegeta chimed in after that.

The "So is he that powerful? I was afraid of that..." is a VIZ error. In the original he just mentioned something like "It can't be... is that so?"

With that in mind, do you still thinking they were expecting Cell to be more powerful than what he displayed against Vegeta and Trunks?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I don't see why they wouldn't be expecting Cell to have more power. Goku said there was no telling how strong Cell would be until he gets serious, and everyone knew he played around with Vegeta and Trunks. The main issue here was none of them knew how strong Cell really was. It was all guesswork.

 

[Pyro]

Yeah, what EV said. They knew Cell was holding back still, just not that he was holding back so much.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, what EV said. They knew Cell was holding back still, just not that he was holding back so much.

Why did they know? Due to Goku saying "there's no telling how strong Cell can get"? Trunks' response was a VIZ error.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Because he never went all-out against Vegeta or Trunks. They tend to have a better understanding of someone's power when they actually decide to get serious. Cell considered those two as jokes to his Perfect form. Outside of that, you just make the points align based on what's shown and stated.

-Goku doesn't believe he'd stand a chance against Cell after observing him.
-Goku shows 50% of his power. Everyone senses him.
-From that point to the next time Goku meets up with them, all of them are still under the impression that Cell is superior despite sensing Goku.

So, Cell's expected level>50% Goku>Cell Vs Vegeta/Trunks

Based on their reactions, they'd have to believe Goku was either lying out of his ass about being weaker than Cell, or they realized that Goku's new power would still be inferior to Cell's based on what Goku said to them.

 

[ahill1]

Because he never went all-out against Vegeta or Trunks.

He never went all out, sure, but would Vegeta and Trunks know it? As far as they knew Cell tanking Super Vegeta's kick could be his full power.

Cell considered those two as jokes to his Perfect form.

Trunks and Vegeta are jokes to even the suppressed Cell who tanked Vegeta's kick. Even Trunks SSJG3's power advantage wouldn't make a difference.

-From that point to the next time Goku meets up with them, all of them are still under the impression that Cell is superior despite sensing Goku.

But why does that mean Cell's expected power >>> Cell (vs Vegeta and Trunks)?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Well, Goku (having not been around for their battle with Cell) mentioned it as a factor for not knowing how strong Cell was and no one attempted to correct him on the matter. That leaves me to believe they all silently agreed that Cell's power was still an unknown because he had yet to fight any of them with all of his power.

If you think 50% Goku is at least >=Grade 3 Trunks, who's >Cell, then Cell has to be a lot stronger for them to believe Goku would still lose. If Cell isn't expected to be a lot more powerful than he was fighting Vegeta/Trunks, then Cell would already be above 50% Goku.

 

[p123]

I'm glad that you decided to educate yourself on the topic. Here's where you went wrong.

1) Trunks actually says "Is that so?" in the original dialogue. Viz changes it a bit. I honestly don't think anyone except Goku has gotten a sense for Cell's real power, I think the rest of the group assumed Base Cell was all he had. Goku shocks them.

2) Interesting note, it does seem Goku and Cell get a feel for each other's full power. Very interesting. With Goku it's clear, but Cell's comments certainly point to him getting a good sense of Goku's power as well. I had not known this previously, thanks for indirectly showing me this.

3) Grade 3 power certainly shouldn't be utterly useless. In a pinch, turning Grade 3 and doing a max power ki blast obviously would be very, very beneficial. It isn't suggested in the story except for Roshi doing it, but they really all should be capable of doing something like this.

4) I think Trunks knows Goku is holding back power after his conversation with Piccolo. It doesn't change Goku's placement against Cell though, only against their expectations.

5) Vegeta is clearly aware of something being wrong. If you have ever seen what Vegeta looks like when he truly feels he is the most powerful one, check out the Androids Saga. Or right after the ROSAT. He is the most arrogant motherfucker known to man. He immediately rushes to battle and he forces the action from the start. This is certainly not Cell Game Vegeta, he is putting up a front like he's the strongest, but he is being very cautious while holding onto his ego. You have to read between the lines here noobie.

6) Piccolo has to realize Goku is holding back, he has no sense on Cell's power, he only has a sense of Goku and how Goku is. He is basing everything he thinks about Cell based on Goku as a guideline, so is everyone else. That's the overall point you are missing.

7) The Cell Junior fight with Piccolo is what puts Piccolo somewhere near them as well as Cell's comments about someone other than Trunks and Vegeta possibly being on par as well. Piccolo is standing at the end of the battle, that is absolutely a feat, try hard as you may to diminish it, the Cell Junior was simply not powerful enough to put the Great Demon King Piccolo down for the count. Meanwhile, Cell Junior was powerful enough to put down freaking Full Power Super Saiyan Goku, who was fatigued, but no matter.

 

[p123]

Yes Post Ki Barrage Goku >> Vegeta, Trunks, but good on SSJ to realize Goku is indeed losing power as time goes on.

Post Ki Barrage Goku >> Vegeta, Trunks > Piccolo >> Goku not fighting for a while

So Goku had to have lost tons of power while Gohan was fighting. Does it make sense? Nope. Can you make it make sense, sure. What can we do to change it? Fuck all...



And no Trunks did not expect Cell to be stronger than what he shown. The whole Grade 3 > Cell thing suggests that Cell was at his limits, even the audience, narrator etc should not believe Cell has even more at this point.

 

[ahill1]

Well, Goku (having not been around for their battle with Cell) mentioned it as a factor for not knowing how strong Cell was and no one attempted to correct him on the matter. That leaves me to believe they all silently agreed that Cell's power was still an unknown because he had yet to fight any of them with all of his power.

Agreed, Goku's line is a strong indicator that what Cell displayed against Vegeta and Trunks was just the tip of the iceberg. But upon transforming into his perfect form, Cell gave off a chi which was below Vegeta SSJG2 according to #16:

Chapter: 382 (DBZ 188), P11.1-4
No.16: “Cell really did get considerably stronger…But Vegeta’s still better than him at everything!”
Vegeta: “Damn you. You’re not taking this seriously.”
Cell: “I told you I was warming-up.”

That's the chi signal Cell was giving off to which everyone (except Kuririn once he was kicked) believed Vegeta wasn't screwed. Do you think it's a stretch to think that when Goku exited the RoSaT he could just sense this chi level from Cell, and Trunks and co. took Goku's comment as "well, the Cell who completely tooled Vegeta is way stronger than this 'fake chi' Cell"?

you think 50% Goku is at least >=Grade 3 Trunks

Yeah, but that's not something completely set in stone.


That's not something I necessarily agree with (I even presented 50% >>> warm up points), but I still think it's a possibility.

 

[p123]

Grade 3 Trunks is very relevant, just not in traditional combat. If you use him just for a finishing ki blast, he's absolutely relevant.

Trunks, Vegeta and Piccolo all think that Base Cell is Cell's full power.

 

[p123]

Goku is certainly not sensing "fake ki" Cell. You are making shit up now to make power levels fit that are incorrect.

 

[ahill1]

I honestly don't see much problem with Goku sensing the chi which was below Grade 2 Vegeta. I don't see why so many people use this "fake chi" stuff. It's just a chi that Cell was putting out that wasn't his full, and he increased it when dealing with Vegeta.

Aren't you saying Trunks and co. thought base Cell was his full power?

 

[p123]

No, you're wrong. Let me show you why.

First off it was fake ki, he is at a level higher than what he is showing based on how easily he handles Vegeta. The fake ki is merely to play mind games with Vegeta. He didn't merely increase it to fight Vegeta, he showed everyone his true power.

Nothing ever suggests he lowered his power or that Goku sensed his lower power. This is pure conjecture. You are playing devil's advocate with no real basis. You are not a true elite.

Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo all think Base Cell = Cell's full power, yes.

 

[ahill1]

First off it was fake ki, he is at a level higher than what he is showing based on how easily he handles Vegeta. The fake ki is merely to play mind games with Vegeta. He didn't merely increase it to fight Vegeta, he showed everyone his true power.

He is just suppressing himself. When moving at that super speed and tanking Vegeta's kick he increased his powers. #16 is using a mechanical scouter and he reads Cell's powers at a level < Vegeta.

Nothing ever suggests he lowered his power or that Goku sensed his lower power. This is pure conjecture. You are playing devil's advocate with no real basis. You are not a true elite.

Well he wasn't fighting anymore, he was just standing there and waiting the whole days, so I don't think he'd be exerting himself at a level beyond his base power.

Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo all think Base Cell = Cell's full power, yes.

So you think they just realized it after Piccolo and Goku's conversation?

 

[p123]

I don't think Cell is suppressing himself, he doesn't have reason to do so. I think Base Cell is his base power.

Either way, Cell and Goku both are able to sense the lion's share of each other's power. Which is incredible.

Krillen's mega sensing powers were wrong. Or the story narrative shifted.