Recent Chapter Discussion

[Captain Cadaver]

Denjiro arriving immediately was expected. Not too bad, considering Oda at least seems to want to get towards the climax of this awful arc quicker, but it definitely saps away all of the tension when it came to the question of numbers and the manner in which it was performed was very contrived. You have Kinemon being suspicious of an informant, being surprised at the reveal of the informant and then suddenly being able to do this 4-D chess galaxy brain plan? Very consistent...

Luffy casually using Gear 4th in such a manner may be amongst the worst things in the entire arc. As though Whole Cake Island didn't already make him not spamming it prior to Doflamingo a plot hole when he used it twice against both Cracker and Katakuri, this arc drives in the idiocy of it either. Even if he's somehow learned to master it offscreen through his training (which is bad writing in itself), that simply takes away the tension of using a double-edged sword like Gear 4th when both it and Gear 3rd were supposed to chip away at Luffy's lifespan. As though Luffy weren't plot armoured enough already, this is the final nail in the coffin of any challenge he faces having near enough zero tension at this point.

 

[SSJ2]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention] do you think it's likely for Zoro to be above Commander 1 tier now? Given that Ashura Denjiro/Kyoshiro was one they had to be careful around, that implies to me they are at least on the same tier. While Zoro's fight with him was short, it looked like a stalemate to me.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Could be. It depends how much effort Denjiro was putting out, considering he had no reason to really go in for the kill against Zoro, but it does suggest Base Zoro could be around Jack's level. Him being able to take on King seems pretty likely now. Also, he saw Gear 4th first-hand for the first time from a decent distance and didn't seem completely in awe, suggesting perhaps his full power is indeed on the level of Yonko 2nd-in-Commands.

 

[SSJ2]

It seems absurd for him to be that strong when he has never been tested in the New World. Luffy was certainly not that strong in Dressrosa despite having G4. I guess training with Mihawk > training with the Pirate King's first mate lol.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

And holding Oden's sword/furthering Busoshoku Haki training from a guy who's never been outside of Wano >> Both those training methods combined

 

[ahill1]

As for Luffy using G4 to destroy that battle ship, it's Worth noting that he launched himself onto the sea and the G4 state is the only one that allows Luffy to fly, so I could see him using it being explainable at least.

I didn't comment before, but from what we've seen of the flashback, Roger seems to be those flamboyant and happy go look type like Luffy. Not surprising though considering how much Luffy is compared to Roger in wherever he passes. Oden's personality is somewhat different than I'd think. For some reason I thought he'd be more the silent, stoic type, but I can't complain, I enjoyed the chatacter to some extent. But as have been pointed out here, I also dislike how little of the battle against Kaido was displayed. While it's true that Oden vs Kaido in specific seemed a very short battle, it's still a letdown to see a battle of such calliber ending in less than a page.

I found the reveal of the traitor pretty funny. In one page Kanjuro seemed as worried as everyone and when turning the page, he's already with that vilaneous looking admitting that he's the traitor. Some youtubers here from my country as well as a lot of fans had already called the game before the revelation though, with Kanjuro being for most the most obvious to be the traitor so it didn't come as unprecedented to me, and with how much their plans had been failing it was somewhat obvious the presence of a snitcher between them.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As for Luffy using G4 to destroy that battle ship, it's Worth noting that he launched himself onto the sea and the G4 state is the only one that allows Luffy to fly, so I could see him using it being explainable at least.

Not only have characters such as Doflamingo been shown to leap far greater distances than that between the two ships, but Luffy has shown the ability to propel himself great distances without Gears using Gomu Gomu no Rocket, so him launching himself into the sea in general was something that could be avoided entirely.

 

[ahill1]

He could propel himself to attack those battle ships, but how would he be back? He wouldn't have the coordination to control where he'd land, which was among the series motive of his crew many times jumping at the sea to save him.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He has a guy who can control magnetism and another who can alter the space around him backing him up, so there are definitely methods in which he could've kept things under control. In any case, regardless of the necessity, him being able to just casually use Gear 4th with zero repercussions is still bad writing as not only does it make his previous Gears worthless, but completely destroys any kind of justification for him not using the form prior to Dressrosa and either undermines or erases the drawback of it draining his lifespan and Haki prior which actually offered some tension the first time he used it.

 

[SSJ2]

He didnt use G4 to launch across the sea.

Why would he not be able to return using the same method?

 

[ahill1]

He has a guy who can control magnetism and another who can alter the space around him backing him up

Or he just wants to depend upon himself to return to the ship. We have seen that he's a little competitive when it comes to Kid, so it wouldn't surprise me he would not want to take this latter's help if he can control it. Same with Law, while their rivalry doesn't seem so pronounced, he'd rather be up to himself in situations like this.

him being able to just casually use Gear 4th with zero repercussions is still bad writing as not only does it make his previous Gears worthless, but completely destroys any kind of justification for him not using the form prior to Dressrosa and either undermines or erases the drawback of it draining his lifespan and Haki prior which actually offered some tension the first time he used it.

Back at Dressrosa we knew he hadn't it under control and the burden it placed upon him, while his training prior to this event can at least justify it not being so restless on the body. We saw that when training to master this invisible barrier type of haki he was using his G4 state in some instances, so it can justify it being easier on the body now. While it maybe nulls the other Gear's functionalities, that's still not reason enough not to have this problem sapped if he could. From an out of universe perspective, maybe.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Or he just wants to depend upon himself to return to the ship. We have seen that he's a little competitive when it comes to Kid, so it wouldn't surprise me he would not want to take this latter's help if he can control it. Same with Law, while their rivalry doesn't seem so pronounced, he'd rather be up to himself in situations like this.

Which again, is bad writing as it shows he hasn't learned from his mistakes and is still reckless despite this being the kind of dire situation where he should be anything but that.
Also, as Curtis said, he didn't even need the form to reach the ship in the first place.

Back at Dressrosa we knew he hadn't it under control and the burden it placed upon him, while his training prior to this event can at least justify it not being so restless on the body. We saw that when training to master this invisible barrier type of haki he was using his G4 state in some instances, so it can justify it being easier on the body now. While it maybe nulls the other Gear's functionalities, that's still not reason enough not to have this problem sapped if he could. From an out of universe perspective, maybe.

The fact we didn't see much of his training or were given much insight into him mastering the form or anything like that is a flaw in itself as it completely brushes over the important aspects of his training.

 

[SSJ2]

Luffy should have been capable of destroying that ship in Base. Him even needing the gears to perform that feat is laughable. Oda tried to write a scene that looked cool by having the 3 rivals try to destroy the ship, but it came across as the opposite of that to me. It was retarded.

 

[SSJ2]

Hell, Zoro could have slashed it in half from the Sunny similar to how Kyoshiro did. That whole scene was so pointless.

 

[ahill1]

Which again, is bad writing as it shows he hasn't learned from his mistakes and is still reckless despite this being the kind of dire situation where he should be anything but that.
Also, as Curtis said, he didn't even need the form to reach the ship in the first place.

It wouldn't be "not learning from his past mistakes" if the usage of the G4 didn't come with any serious predicament. He could use it and chose to so he would be more dependable.

As for that panel SSJ2 posted, we don't know how far from the ship he actually was when he launched his attack. For all we know he could have already covered some distance when he used his elasticity to grab to the ship.

The fact we didn't see much of his training or were given much insight into him mastering the form or anything like that is a flaw in itself as it completely brushes over the important aspects of his training.

Maybe it'll be fleshed out in future occurrences. Too early to be called a flaw imo. It can also be argued that the constant usage of the G4 makes Luffy's body more acclimated to it.

 

[SSJ2]

Except we do know how far apart the ships were.

We've also seen how far Base Luffy can stretch his arms.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It wouldn't be "not learning from his past mistakes" if the usage of the G4 didn't come with any serious predicament. He could use it and chose to so he would be more dependable.

Using your most taxing form when needing to conserve energy for an extremely important battle is inexcusably reckless. It's the same as if Goku had to fight Pure Boo and decided to use SS3 on some Raditz tier mooks. This is further damaged by Luffy's recklessness being the entire reason he got beaten by Kaido and something he's been criticised for throughout the entire New World events, yet hasn't taken even one stop in trying a more rational and conservative approach to battle.

As for that panel SSJ2 posted, we don't know how far from the ship he actually was when he launched his attack. For all we know he could have already covered some distance when he used his elasticity to grab to the ship.

The fact still remains that, from what we're shown, he didn't need Gear 4th to bridge the distance between the boats.

Maybe it'll be fleshed out in future occurrences. Too early to be called a flaw imo.

We're already into the climactic conflict of the arc, so leaving it this far to offer any explanation for a clear contradiction to the rules of Gear 4th is poor storytelling that can only result in a sloppy explanation.
Compare this to something like Goku mastering Super Saiyan. In that situation, we're given a clear incentive of what he needs to accomplish, see his process of trial and error in training and then see the result. Assuming Luffy's training was to master Gear 4th, Oda completely skipped the 2nd step and, thus, made any sort of impact from the result seem hollow.

It can also be argued that the constant usage of the G4 makes Luffy's body more acclimated to it.

We're specifically told that using it so much will shave off more of Luffy's lifespan and Nami even says this isn't something Luffy can keep using in excess after Doflamingo's defeat, so that wouldn't work. Even if that was the case, again, Oda skipped over the step of showing Luffy's training and new methods in mastering the form to mitigate the weakness that lessened any impact of seeing him perfect its usage.

 

[SSJ2]

Even if there is an explanation for Luffy being able to use G4 at will, that still isn't good enough for me. As CC said, it has been stressed that the gear forms sap away from Luffy's lifespan, G4 obviously being the most taxing form. If that flaw suddenly disappears, then what is the point in any of the lower gear forms? Luffy deserves to lose valuable years of his life for using such methods to overcome his own limits. That shouldn't just disappear.

 

[ahill1]

Except we do know how far apart the ships were.

We've also seen how far Base Luffy can stretch his arms.

That image isn't so good to quantify the distance as it's rather zoomed out. We can't infere much from the Thousand Sunny's perspective.

Stretching his arms when trying to reach the enemy ship would also lead to them becoming more vulnerable and he has already seen how a moment of carelessness in this aspect can lead to it being slashed, such as in the fight against Cracker.

Using your most taxing form when needing to conserve energy for an extremely important battle is inexcusably reckless

We don't know if it's still the most taxing form. Maybe it's being used so casually because it no longer is, or if it still is, it still compensates due to its ability to fly around.

This is further damaged by Luffy's recklessness being the entire reason he got beaten by Kaido and something he's been criticised for throughout the entire New World events, yet hasn't taken even one stop in trying a more rational and conservative approach to battle.

Yeah, he's impulsive, I can give it in. But on the other side, weren't for it he maybe wouldn't have encountered that Hyogoro old man and wouldn't have advanced on his training, as the whole prison segment was important in this aspect.

The fact still remains that, from what we're shown, he didn't need Gear 4th to bridge the distance between the boats.

Maybe... we don't know. See my point up above.

We're already into the climactic conflict of the arc, so leaving it this far to offer any explanation for a clear contradiction to the rules of Gear 4th is poor storytelling that can only result in a sloppy explanation.
Compare this to something like Goku mastering Super Saiyan. In that situation, we're given a clear incentive of what he needs to accomplish, see his process of trial and error in training and then see the result. Assuming Luffy's training was to master Gear 4th, Oda completely skipped the 2nd step and, thus, made any sort of impact from the result seem hollow.

I really see no difference in a piece of information being explained to us during the occurring of the scene or after it, in which case, Luffy's main battles are a good way to expose to us in higher details the nature of his training. We aren't still that advanced on the arc, either. It's reaching the conflict, which is the bulky of the arc and according to Oda an event that outclasses even Marineford in importance, so there's space for a fine detailment to be made.

We're specifically told that using it so much will shave off more of Luffy's lifespan and Nami even says this isn't something Luffy can keep using in excess after Doflamingo's defeat, so that wouldn't work. Even if that was the case, again, Oda skipped over the step of showing Luffy's training and new methods in mastering the form to mitigate the weakness that lessened any impact of seeing him perfect its usage.

Sure, though G2 was also presented initially as very taxing to the body, to the point he could maintain it against Lucci with difficulties, with Luffy having to push himself to it after the first usage, yet he's apparently more used to it by the time of Impel Down and Marineford... I assume the heavy usage made Luffy's body more used to it in a way, similarly to how the SSJ is presented as restless on the body and said to be life-consuming and yet Goku's solution was keeping the state activated almost 24/7. It will have lasting consequences, and they'll likely feel it later on in their lives, but that doesn't mean the body can't momentarily adapt to its usage.

Think of someone smoking for the 1st time and coughing heavily and having a sore throat because of it... but if you push this habit to you, your body will momentarily adapt to it, at the expense of lasting consequences later on, though. The body can adapt to a restless thing while accumulating the harm it leads it to with time.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That image isn't so good to quantify the distance as it's rather zoomed out. We can't infere much from the Thousand Sunny's perspective.

The example shows the distance he stretched his arm during the Wapol fight as being undeniably greater than that between the two ships.

We don't know if it's still the most taxing form. Maybe it's being used so casually because it no longer is

Which, if so, shouldn't have been relegated to offscreen growth. That's lazy writing.

or if it still is, it still compensates due to its ability to fly around.

Unnecessary for the example already shown.

Yeah, he's impulsive, I can give it in. But on the other side, weren't for it he maybe wouldn't have encountered that Hyogoro old man and wouldn't have advanced on his training, as the whole prison segment was important in this aspect.

Which doesn't matter when it should've still taught him a lesson, yet didn't.

Maybe... we don't know. See my point up above.

Then we must go by what evidence is presented rather than making assumptions, and all evidence points to him not needing Gear 4th whatsoever.

I really see no difference in a piece of information being explained to us during the occurring of the scene or after it, in which case, Luffy's main battles are a good way to expose to us in higher details the nature of his training. We aren't still that advanced on the arc, either. It's reaching the conflict, which is the bulky of the arc and according to Oda an event that outclasses even Marineford in importance, so there's space for a fine detailment to be made.

Introducing new information in such a manner rather than a more linear approach without the proper set-up comes off as backtracking to fill in an obvious plot hole rather than a natural flow of events.

Sure, though G2 was also presented initially as very taxing to the body, to the point he could maintain it against Lucci with difficulties, with Luffy having to push himself to it after the first usage, yet he's apparently more used to it by the time of Impel Down and Marineford...

Gear 2nd wasn't suggested to have been that taxing on his body though. It wasn't until Gear 3rd that it his forms were noted to have a taxing nature on his lifespan. Whilst he did mitigate it after his training with Rayleigh, that was after utilising all branches of Haki to help control it. Gear 4th is already the all purpose form with a massive drawback, so its taxing nature being mitigated just by increasing his Busoshoku Haki comes off as a contrived explanation (assuming that even is the reason at all).

I assume the heavy usage made Luffy's body more used to it in a way, similarly to how the SSJ is presented as restless on the body and said to be life-consuming and yet Goku's solution was keeping the state activated almost 24/7.

Super Saiyan was only a form that drained Ki quickly though, not one with absolutely debilitating effects on the body.

It will have lasting consequences, and they'll likely feel it later on in their lives, but that doesn't mean the body can't momentarily adapt to its usage.

That's the whole problem though. We've been constantly told about the consequences of using it, but we haven't even seen one slither of it since his battle with Doflamingo. We're meant to assume it will happen despite no indication of its taxing effects being emphasised ever since Dressrosa or had nods to the consequences, nor have we been given a thorough explanation on how Luffy managed to improve it so much.
Moreover, a taxing, flawed form is what can create tension each time a character uses it, much like how Goku using Kaio-ken was always treat as a big deal due to the consequences and provided an extra layer of tension. If you remove that without the proper build up and plot developments, then it just becomes cheap power creep.