Recent Chapter Discussion

[Papasmurf]

I'm not even looking that hard, and even if I did I wouldn't care that much as I have no expectations of consistency when it comes to Super anymore. But shit like Ultra Instinct Roshi and Goku asspulling a power up equivalent to Merged Zamasu's strength without training, Gohan getting as powerful as SSJ Kefla from fighting for 30 minutes when he couldn't even measure up to Gotenks-Boo before are plot holes that stick out like a thumb, and should not be the writer's standard when he has an entire month to plan out chapters rather than the week Toriyama was originally given in DB.

 

[Emmeth]

Roshi didn't use UI, the rest I'm not gonna comment on since we're way past that point and I can't defend it.

I think this arc so far has been pretty okay. It's not fantastic, but it's not awful either and I quite like Moro as a villain. He feels unique.

 

[Papasmurf]

Roshi had something similar to it which means he has no business losing to Daimao, Tenshinhan, Raditz or pretty much any foe in the original manga except Boo. That's pure bullshit, especially when it implies Goku is massively less skilled than Roshi despite dueling him to a near-draw at 12 years old. That's idiocy at its purest state.

Moro would've been alright but he's way outlived any interest his arc generated by now imo. Even worse is that despite all the energy he's sucked up he's still blatantly weaker than Blue without magic, so Toyotaro's pretty much given away that his magic will either be made useless so he can be finished off or he'll fall to a surprise attack.

 

[Emmeth]

Roshi had something similar to it which means he has no business losing to Daimao, Tenshinhan, Raditz or pretty much any foe in the original manga except Boo. That's pure bullshit, especially when it implies Goku is massively less skilled than Roshi despite dueling him to a near-draw at 12 years old. That's idiocy at its purest state.

Moro would've been alright but he's way outlived any interest his arc generated by now imo. Even worse is that despite all the energy he's sucked up he's still blatantly weaker than Blue without magic, so Toyotaro's pretty much given away that his magic will either be made useless so he can be finished off or he'll fall to a surprise attack.

I like to think Roshi mastered his speed and reaction time after all those events, possibly during the training he did before the ToP. It also doesn't mean necessarily he can take on any enemy above say the Ginyu Force of Namek.

That's not new for Dragon Ball though. Pretty much every villain has gone out that way.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

You're a lot more forgiving than the rest of us.

I don't needlessly look for plot holes to dissect every chapter.

 

[Papasmurf]

Roshi had something similar to it which means he has no business losing to Daimao, Tenshinhan, Raditz or pretty much any foe in the original manga except Boo. That's pure bullshit, especially when it implies Goku is massively less skilled than Roshi despite dueling him to a near-draw at 12 years old. That's idiocy at its purest state.

Moro would've been alright but he's way outlived any interest his arc generated by now imo. Even worse is that despite all the energy he's sucked up he's still blatantly weaker than Blue without magic, so Toyotaro's pretty much given away that his magic will either be made useless so he can be finished off or he'll fall to a surprise attack.

I like to think Roshi mastered his speed and reaction time after all those events, possibly during the training he did before the ToP. It also doesn't mean necessarily he can take on any enemy above say the Ginyu Force of Namek.

Roshi easily defeated one of the upper tier Pride Troopers after Dyspo, who earlier survived an attack from Kefla. There's just no explaining this as anything other than an asinine contrivance.

That's not new for Dragon Ball though. Pretty much every villain has gone out that way.

This one feels too much like some sort of escape artist, escaping repeated battles with Vegeta, Boo and Goku despite an inferiority in power, and usually by just spamming his ki sucking trick or through outside interference. He feels just like Cell in his earlier forms, except we know he won't power up more than this as that wasn't his wish, so there isn't much to look forward to.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't needlessly look for plot holes to dissect every chapter.

As Kenshi said though, you don't even need much effort to have plot holes, and whether or not you care about them, their existence once found effects the work's overall objective quality.

For example, this arc by all accounts shouldn't even exist. There's nothing that would affect Cranberry's path in Future Trunks' timeline and by all accounts, nothing should've prevented Moro from escaping and ravaging the universe in Trunks' timeline long ago. Moreover, it makes no sense how the Galactic Patrol were able to keep such powerful prisoners locked up when their strongest member is Merus (and him being so strong is a contrivance in itself), Moro taking three days to find three Dragon Balls when he could sense them compared to Goku only needing a day or so to find all 7 in the Cell Arc, absorbing a planet's energy being enough to overpower someone established as a universe buster, etc.

It's fine to like the arc, but to say the plot holes aren't obvious or that the sheer amount in this arc alone aren't extremely detrimental to it and Super's quality (whatever amount there was) would just be plain incorrect.

 

[Kyo]

>You can find plot holes everywhere though if you look hard enough

perhaps. and some have it worse than others, hence people deciding they like those series less (everything is great if you just ignore the bad stuff but no one subscribes to such a philosophy). in theory everything has good and everything has flaws but this is not the point and there is a reason ppl have favorites and the opposite.

idk, people like what they like n vice versa. whatev. i dropped super anime after like 5 eps. tho i also see little issue with choosing to power thru for other reasons when you dislike it.

 

[Emmeth]

It's fine to like the arc, but to say the plot holes aren't obvious or that the sheer amount in this arc alone aren't extremely detrimental to it and Super's quality (whatever amount there was) would just be plain incorrect.

I never said there weren't obvious plot holes, but you bring up something minor like the Galactic Patrol knowing about Namek's location. Those types of issues can be easily explained by them having to know since it's in their jurisdiction. And Moro could've found out from a guard or from their database.

 

[Pyro]

There isn't a single chapter I read and not think, "AT has forgotten all of his power rankings".

He's giving the implication that Piccolo should be scared of Freeza once again in the latest one.

This was correct at one point.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I never said there weren't obvious plot holes

Yet you very much implied it here:

I don't needlessly look for plot holes to dissect every chapter.

This would imply the plot holes aren't obvious and constant enough to view at first glance and people go out of their way to find them, rather than just having the memory to be able to tell that many events don't add up.

but you bring up something minor like the Galactic Patrol knowing about Namek's location.

I fail to remember bringing it up, but I never cited it as a major issue of the arc, not compared to the lack of Moro in Trunks' timeline making this an arc that should be impossible to happen or the heavily inconsistent feats of regular criminals and Galactic Patrol members in a universe in which Freeza was once treat as a top tier, at least.

Secondly, minor issues are still issues that impact the overall quality of a work and when combined with huge problems and not balanced by an equal amount of positives, cause the poor quality of a work to become even more evident. Whether someone notices a minor problem at first or not doesn't change the fact it does exist and thus causes a work to slip further and further away from perfection.

Those types of issues can be easily explained by them having to know since it's in their jurisdiction. And Moro could've found out from a guard or from their database.

It can be explained, but the problem is the manga never even attempts to rationalise their mountain of contrivances. If a story necessitates making assumptions to justify its holes to the point the audience is essentially attempting to improve its lack of explanations, then the story telling is poor.

For this example in specific, such assumptionss, even if expanded on in the work, would still be heavily contrived when considering the Freeza Force didn't even come close to finding New Namek over the span of at least 16 years despite being a primary goal for Sorbet, yet the Galactic Patrol were able to easily discover it. This could have been justified by the reveal of the Galactic Patrol having influence in over 107 sectors, but that's vague at best when we aren't given much information on how much area constitutes a sector. The pieces to make it work are indeed available with just a single explanation, yet the story makes no effort in presenting it in a way that's foolproof or even evident.

There is obviously a scale of how much a problem impacts a work. For instance, slight superficial problems such as Goku having the Kame kanji on his gi during a page in the Cell Arc is just a harmless nitpick that has no real impact on the story. Being given no explanation on how New Namek was discovered by the Patrol whilst presenting a factor that prevented the Freeza Force from discovering it with all their efforts, however, raises far more questions than it answers.

 

[Ultimate Cell]

The Galactic Patrol were apparently too weak to take on Frieza Empire despite having guys like Merus and being able to contain Prisoners that Moros thought would be useful. How incompetent are they

 

[Papasmurf]

The Moro arc is the worst arc in the series

 

[Kyo]

minor issues are still issues that impact the overall quality of a work and when combined with huge problems and not balanced by an equal amount of positives, cause the poor quality of a work to become even more evident.

In addition minor issues are often just indicative of a major problem with the writing in general (a large pile of similar minor issues also counts as a major problem).

For example in Bleach the fact that Yammy when using his resurreccion said some shit like "whoever said the Espada were numbered 1-10?" is arguably a minor issue (perhaps Yammy is simply not aware that there are people saying that, perhaps whatshisfucker who made the statement before was simply not aware that Yammy was the true #0), but it is still indicative of a more overarching problem wherein the series just fails to maintain internal consistency in general/relies heavily on subtractive retcon, and often comes off as though it's being written on the fly. No one will really say Bleach sucks because of this singular flaw, but it's worth poking fun at nonetheless because I know this is what Bleach is like. (And people still like Bleach anyway. That's good for them. I'll still think it's bad though.)

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Would've mentioned how the small problems can gradually chip away at a work, though in the example of the Moro Arc, the major problems probably outnumber the minor ones.

 

[Emmeth]

I never said there weren't obvious plot holes

Yet you very much implied it here:

I don't needlessly look for plot holes to dissect every chapter.

I can easily swing this to say I acknowledge plot holes. Like I said, I never said there weren't plot holes.

My comment was just that you point them out (fairly) and go on to dissect and heavily criticize (less fairly) them when they're not necessarily detriment to the story. I get the feeling you thrive on being negative and you almost seem unable to point out positives these days, while I agree some of these chapters are sub-par for what they could be. In the end you can choose whether or not you consider them canon or not and it becomes rather laughable when some people say "it has ruined Z" for them.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Super more like Subpar.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

My comment was just that you point them out (fairly) and go on to dissect

Yes, because this is a thread on discussing the chapter. If we're not to dissect the components of the chapter, then there'd be little to discuss.

and heavily criticize (less fairly) them when they're not necessarily detriment to the story.

Any flaw, be it major or minor, is a detriment to the story to some degree, especially when in copious amounts or when no positives of equal value are there.

I get the feeling you thrive on being negative and you almost seem unable to point out positives these days,

If the chapters had positives worth pointing out, I'd point them out (see my posts regarding the manga's ToP Arc compared to the anime version in this thread). For the current arc, however, I have yet to see anything that counts as a positive addition to the franchise when even the best parts of the arc are poor rehashes of previous ideas.

and it becomes rather laughable when some people say "it has ruined Z" for them.

If the chapters end up creating huge plot holes with what came before or being incapable of handling the portrayals of established characters as previous parts of the franchise has, I'd say they're entitled to view it as damaging their perception of what came before in retrospect, especially for a franchise they're clearly invested in and care about. Nothing "laughable" with having expectations and standards based on what the franchise once was.

 

[ahill1]

Forget bout the galactic patrol knowing where Namek was... wasn't it said that it took one week for Moro to get there with Cranberry? How did the other criminals got there in the span of an hour or so?

It was also said by Vegeta that their SSJBs selves could handle Moro. So Moro sharing his chi with his comrades sounds strange as that would either weaken him, or if he shared an insignificant amount compared to his full power, how'd that compete against beings who are > his best? Lol, and yet Vegeta and Goku had to turn Blue to defend themselves firstly.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

First it was DaiKaioh and now Yadrat? Toyo keeps delivering us more fan service stuff.