SSJ2s DB Levels

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Shouldn't it go like Piccolo Jr ~ Shen >>> Unweighted Goku? Tenshinhan is totally blown away by Piccolo vs Shen and says it's completely out of the ordinary. Granted Goku isn't exactly ordinary, but it still seems like a reasonable placement nonetheless.

Btw is there any reason Piccolo's power up vs Kuririn would be below Tenshinhan? Always thought he goes up to the same level he uses vs Shen and only adjusts his effort. He does say something along the lines of showing the true power of the Mazoku or something.

Also curious about with the Chi-Chi and Tao's placements. Seem a bit different from the usual.

 

[SSJ2]

Shouldn't it go like Piccolo Jr ~ Shen >>> Unweighted Goku? Tenshinhan is totally blown away by Piccolo vs Shen and says it's completely out of the ordinary. Granted Goku isn't exactly ordinary, but it still seems like a reasonable placement nonetheless.

Unweighted Goku never had a chance to demonstrate his power against an adversary of that level. The one engagement that Goku had with Tenshinhan was enough to make him try his multi form technique in a last ditch effort. Tenshinhan even said that Goku's power was in a different dimension after the fight, so I think it's acceptable to have these 3 in the same tier. Unweighted Goku was so much faster than Tenshinhan that even his third eye couldn't track Goku stealing his belt. I don't think Shen needs to be above this level for Tenshinhan to have such a reaction.

tw is there any reason Piccolo's power up vs Kuririn would be below Tenshinhan? Always thought he goes up to the same level he uses vs Shen and only adjusts his effort. He does say something along the lines of showing the true power of the Mazoku or something.

It just seemed less impressive to me overall. Krillin was able to take several of his blows head on and stayed in the fight. This suggests to me that the gap between powered up Piccolo and Krillin shouldn't be any larger than a Vegeta vs Dodoria gap at the most. Krillin was even able to stand up after Piccolo's final attack. Tenshinhan was able to outclass weighted Goku (who was said to be stronger than his post-Choshinsui self) easily after increasing his speed, which imo is more impressive than taking out Krillin in 3-5 attacks.

Also curious about with the Chi-Chi and Tao's placements. Seem a bit different from the usual.

Well, I think Tao was treated as a greater threat than Chi Chi, so I have him marginally stronger. I have them both around full power Old Piccolo Daimao. What's the problem?

 

[ahill1]

It may be worth mentioning that Tenshinhan said Shen and suppressed Piccolo both have an "inconceivable" level, way out of the ordinary. This prompts me to place them at a level significantly above initial weighted Goku at least, whom while way stronger than Ten, didn't seem to warrant such an expression from him.

Besides, Ten knew that Goku didn't use his FP right after the fight as he admitted so to Yamcha. And still, he seemed as shocked as everyone else when Goku revealed he was initially warming up against Piccolo Junior. If Goku vs Piccolo Junior initially didn't represent a level considerably above that of initial unweighted Goku (as Ten knew FP Goku >>> unweighted Goku), would Ten act surprised at the reveal? And since there isn't an indication that Piccolo Junior upped his effort in the warm up vs Goku in comparison to what he was against Shen (which I think would be noticed) , I think that Shen and initial Piccolo are considerably above the level unweighted Goku used to tool Tenshinhan, to the point it could match a "hypothetical FP Goku" in Ten's mind.

 

[SSJ2]

Fantastic breakdown man, can't argue against any of that. I haven't gotten to the part where Goku and Piccolo claim they were warming up in their fight, but that seals the deal. I'll change my numbers when I have time.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Damn Ahill stealing my arguments

[mention]SuperSaiyan2[/mention] nah nothing wrong about Chi-Chi and Tao. Just curious because most of the time I see people placing Tao close to Yamcha and Chi-Chi far below that.

 

[ahill1]

Damn Ahill stealing my arguments

I didn't think on this argument until I reread the manga for the 10th time or so lol. Recently realized this would be a good point to endorse Shen and supp. junior being >>> initial unweighted Goku.

 

[SSJ2]

I don't think initial Tenshinhan needs to be dimensions beyond Yamcha, and we saw how little effort it took for Tenshinhan to defeat Tao.

 

[SSJ2]

Okay I changed things up a bit. Better?

 

[ahill1]

Kuririn and Yamcha's surprise lying on Ten being that strong rather than Tao Pai Pai being just a hack should also be somewhat telling in saying Tao is at least relevant to Kuririn and Yamcha imo. Yamcha also thought it was a good idea to lend Ten a help when he saw Tao had a knife and Tao's super Dodonpa got a surprising react from him, indicating a certain proximity. I had it like this last time, I think:

Old Piccolo : 120
Cyborg Tao : 140
Yamcha : 160
Kuririn : 170
Young Piccolo/Goku : 200
Tenshinhan : 240
Unweighted Goku (initially) : 320
Shen : 375
Piccolo Junior warming up/Goku initially : 400
Full power Piccolo : 585
Full power Goku : 600


Out of scale though, only the gaps.

 

[SSJ2]

I'm not sure I see the connection there. Akkuman using weaponry was enough to make Goku access a higher level of power to one shot him, but it didn't have any bearing on Akkuman's actual power.

I did raise Tao some but I don't see any reason for him to be rivalling Krillin or Yamcha.

 

[ahill1]

I like the levels you assign to the weakened powers of each character. It's obviously based moreso on preference, but I like having Piccolo (increased effort vs Kuririn) and Shen (vs Yamcha) at the level of young Piccolo and post Choushinsui Goku. I think it demonstrates nicely how the supporting heroes would fare against the highest levels before then (young Piccolo and Goku). They are close to a certain extent enough to draw some surprising reaction and that Shen would even compliment Yamcha with Piccolo considering Kuririn a threat, but they are still distanced enough that they couldn't accomplish too much against such power, as although being able to follow Ten vs Goku's initial scuffle, they clearly held such speed in a pedestal.

Then Ten ups his speed and show then the highest level shown in the tournament imo. I think Ten could deal with suppressed Piccolo and suppressed Shen (vs Yamcha and Kuririn) as well as he was dealing with weighted Goku. It's not until Shen and Piccolo reveal more power that we see a flat out admittance of inferiority by Ten. Goku takes off his weights and shows then the highest power shown in the tournament but gets eclipsed by Shen and Piccolo revealing even more of their depths.

And then full power Goku and Piccolo seem hightened enough that not even when losing a shit ton of power Kami wants a piece of Piccolo, preferring to be killed instead. This shows a huge gap between the suppressed warming up Piccolo and Goku and their full power selves.


Goku/Picc (FP) > Goku/Piccolo/Shen (warming up) ~ Goku (estimated by Ten) > unweighted Goku (vs Ten) > Tenshinhan > Shen (vs Yamcha) ~ post Choushinsui Goku ~ young Piccolo Daimao ~ weighted Goku (speed) > Kuririn >= Yamcha > Tao Pai Pai

 

[SSJ2]

Does my gap between weighted Goku and Tenshinhan look too small? Tenshinhan was huffing and puffing by the end of their engagement and Goku clearly seemed to be a step ahead of him. Goku's display was enough for Roshi to assert that they weren't even after all. Thoughts?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nah, if anything they should be equals. It’s a clear display of the stuff Popo teached Goku; “quiet as the sky, quick as lightning” to avoid unecessary movements. Unless you’re taking stamina into account for those numbers since they aren’t Ki/scouter based, in which case I’d say it’s still fine since your gaps are pretty minimalistic overall.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kuririn and Yamcha's surprise lying on Ten being that strong rather than Tao Pai Pai being just a hack should also be somewhat telling in saying Tao is at least relevant to Kuririn and Yamcha imo. Yamcha also thought it was a good idea to lend Ten a help when he saw Tao had a knife and Tao's super Dodonpa got a surprising react from him, indicating a certain proximity. I had it like this last time, I think:

Old Piccolo : 120
Cyborg Tao : 140
Yamcha : 160
Kuririn : 170
Young Piccolo/Goku : 200
Tenshinhan : 240
Unweighted Goku (initially) : 320
Shen : 375
Piccolo Junior warming up/Goku initially : 400
Full power Piccolo : 585
Full power Goku : 600


Out of scale though, only the gaps.

Not sure if Tao has to be relevant to Roshi. Other than his reputation and one shotting Chaozu they didn’t have a lot to go by on Tao.

I dunno. This is smelling a lot like Kaioshin << Pui Pui for me.

 

[SSJ2]

I don’t think he’s relevant at all. Tenshinhan was trying his hardest not to embarrass him in front of the crowd and still made him look like an idiot.

 

[ahill1]

Kuririn and Yamcha's surprise lying on Ten being that strong rather than Tao Pai Pai being just a hack should also be somewhat telling in saying Tao is at least relevant to Kuririn and Yamcha imo. Yamcha also thought it was a good idea to lend Ten a help when he saw Tao had a knife and Tao's super Dodonpa got a surprising react from him, indicating a certain proximity. I had it like this last time, I think:

Old Piccolo : 120
Cyborg Tao : 140
Yamcha : 160
Kuririn : 170
Young Piccolo/Goku : 200
Tenshinhan : 240
Unweighted Goku (initially) : 320
Shen : 375
Piccolo Junior warming up/Goku initially : 400
Full power Piccolo : 585
Full power Goku : 600


Out of scale though, only the gaps.

Not sure if Tao has to be relevant to Roshi. Other than his reputation and one shotting Chaozu they didn’t have a lot to go by on Tao.

I dunno. This is smelling a lot like Kaioshin << Pui Pui for me.

Roshi?

I think Yamcha"s surprised reaction at the Super Dodonpa plus saying Ten is too strong after the performance he put up might suggest he isn't good enough to embarrass Tao Pai Pai that way. I don't think they are that close, though I'd like to keep a certain proximity between Tao and Kuririn/Yamcha.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]ahill1[/mention] Roshi’s disciple

I guess we just got a huge gap then. Tenshinhan did his best to not humiliate Tao and still scared Yamcha.

By the way, I think the fact both Goku and Tenshinhan held back a lot in the quarterfinals could point towards Chi-Chi > Tao. Chi-Chi performed much better against a Shouki lost Goku than Tao did against a suppressed Tenshinhan.

 

[ahill1]

I think it could be argued Goku underestimated Chi-Chi more when he jumped to the sky, not expecting her to attack with such speed hence his slight discomfort in dodging her, while Ten already knew what to expect from Tao. He even said he just realized from Tao Pai Pai's attack that the gap between them is too large, meaning he didn't go to the battle taking light of him. Roshi thought Tenshinhan had to run for his life with Tao's super Dodonpa while all Chi-Chi warranted was Roshi saying she's quite a master (which was also said for Chappa-o, for instance), which isn't very telling. I'd be hard pressed to keep Tao significantly above her, but eh, that's just me.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Chi-Chi may be a psycothic housewife, but I'm not sure if she already was one by the 23rd Budokai to make Roshi tell Goku to run for his life. Same with Yamcha wanting to help Tenshinhan against Tao's kitchen knife but not Goku, in case that argument is brought.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where’s the King Castle CHAD?