Gog watches GT.

Papasmurf

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I'm not saying it's not within Galu's character, but quite honestly at this point they deserve to die far more than Piccolo does considering it was their idiotic attempt to take over the world for about the 5th time that led to this disaster, and they have a prior track record of trying to kill Galu in the past as well as letting loose Piccolo Daimao and causing the deaths of thousands as a result. Them being so worthless is why in my rewrite of GT I didn't even so much as specify what happened to Pilaf's crew in the end, since the worse thing you can assume is exactly what they deserve.

I wouldn't have minded Piccolo's death if it weren't ruined by his death just being a convenient solution to the BSDB problem (rendering the first arc pretty damn pointless), plus if the Evil Dragons in the next-next arc were either formed from the UDBs or absorbed them, it'd make half of them managing to achieve SSJ4 tier more easy to swallow when regular Shenlong isn't even as strong as initial young Daimao.
 

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Piccolo sacrificing himself would be more of a last resort than a first one as Goku and co. gathering the balls within the year was still in the realm of probability and would've been a certainty if not for Baby, so it's understandable why he didn't do that. The bigger problem is why wasn't he able to simply deactivate the balls the same as any creator of DBs should, seeing as how the Earth can just be restored and the trip would be a lot easier the 2nd time round to get the balls for deactivation. There could've at least been a throwaway line of not wanting the potential risk of essentially running into another Baby to help alleviate this, but we got nothing.
 

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Perhaps Piccolo couldn't deactivate the UDBs because he technically wasn't the original creator (Kami was), and he merely has Kami's essence?

It is stated that Piccolo hesitated to merge again with Kami because he knew he wasn't a Dragon Clan Namekian in his current state and couldn't reactivate the DBs afterwards, after all.

This not being explained adequately is all the more reason why I don't see the death of Piccolo in GT as well written, even if the emotional payoff with Gohan's grief over his death was ok by Toei standards. That, and Galu could now turn SSJ4 and teleport to any planet with detectable life anyway, so regathering the UDBs isn't exactly a year consuming task anymore. I think they'd have been better off just having Galu asspull a resolve hax to turn SSJ4 again at the thought of Piccolo sacrificing himself, saving Pickles, and then promising Pickles and Gohan that he'd never let anyone die under his watch (which additionally makes Kuririn's death in the S17 arc more tragic), before then spending the next couple of episodes regathering the UDBs instead of wasting his time with the joke of a Tenkaichi Budokai that GT depicted the tournament as. And the Smoke Shenlong could then absorb the UDBs into himself to power up his dragons and make Yi Xing Long having multi-galactic destructive power and corroding power enough to erode away a universe somewhat believable.

This does create a problem with Galu not having Pickles to open the portal for him to escape from Hell, but the Hell portion was a giant plot hole with Freeza and Cell being immortal (which directly conflicts with the Boo arc's explanation of what happens when you die while dead), so you could just have Freeza and Cell escape Hell and keep Galu at bay on some faraway planet using Cell's Shunkan Idou instead.
 

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Since I completed episode 40, I may as well write up my thoughts about the BSDB arc and the Baby arc (for convenience sake I'll treat them like they're both the same arc because in my opinion they're apart of the same saga - remember the gang technically finds all of the dragon balls long after the Baby "arc" starts.)

For starters I'll start with a controversial opinion; I think the decision to de age Goku was the best choice for the show as a whole with what they were going with. For two reasons in fact, the first one would be that Goku as an adult was just too powerful to be wandering the universe - I believe this is actually stated by a GT staff member in an interview - so turning Goku back into a kid was the best choice for keeping the escalation low. The second would be that GT aimed to go back to the roots of Dragon Ball with a hunt for the dragon balls, kid Goku lead on naturally from there.

Another controversial opinion; I like Pan. She's a great character and in my opinion the best post Z character in the entire franchise. She's fun, she's useful to the plot in many ways, she's a great foil to Goku and Trunks. She has layers to her character and really reminds me of a Toriyama esq character with how over the top she can be. I really don't get the hate for her in my opinion, especially when characters like Beerus get a pass in the fanbase.

Another controversial opinion; I like the BSDB arc. I think its an amazing change of pace from the rest of Z, Dragon Ball returning back to its roots with a nice and fun adventure was the right decision for the story especially after the non stop action of the Freeza, Cell and Buu arcs. Exploring each world also had the added effect of making the Dragon Ball universe much larger than it ever had been in the entire franchise - we got to see so many varied worlds and meet other people. I loved the decision. Though personally, I think the BSDB saga was at its best story wise with Imecka and it never really recovered after that. Though it was all good fun.

Another reason why I like the BSDB section of the story is that it allowed the story to do something unheard of for nearly four arcs now and that's building up to the action. In my opinion, BSDB arc and Baby arc earns the world ending stakes and massive fights because it built up to that from such humble beginnings.

This approach also leads into a realization, that the fandom seems to almost entirely ignore. The BSDB arc and the Baby arc are a microcosm of the progression from light hearted adventure to massive beatdown action that took place in the original manga. In its own way the story pays homage to the entire 10+ years of DBZ.

Obviously, I have to bring up the star of the arc - Baby himself. Baby is perhaps one of the best villains Dragon Ball has ever produced, better than a great deal of the original villains who showed up in Toriyama's manga. He's got a great design, he's got gravitas, he had an excellent entrance, he has an amazing backstory and he had a ton of build up. Personally I think it bares mentioning that I believe Baby to be a better attempt at the 'Cell' concept (Baby is outright referred to as the perfect lifeform in his entrance, so I think the resemblances were intentional). But unlike Cell, Baby isn't shoved into the story based on the complaints of an editor, the GT writers obviously spent time into making sure he fit into the story.

His progression from being a humble parasite to gaining the strongest body in the universe was well thought out, compared to Cell needing the entire Z gang to hold planet sized idiot balls to reach his perfect form.

But there is something that makes Baby stand out when compared to all other villains in the franchise. Baby is not a genocidal warlord, he's not a ruthless businessman who profits from destroying worlds, he's not a genetic monster made to destroy all life and he's not an evil force of nature.

Baby is a victim based on his backstory. There is no question about it. I think its an important point to make because this point is downplayed heavily by the story to a ridiculous degree. There are two short backstories on the Saiyan genocide of the Tuffles, once when Baby possesses Vegeta and the other time when Baby sees Ozaruu Goku. Besides this the reality that Baby is a victim is almost treated like window dressing by the plot and Baby himself is played up to be so incredibly villainous with no redeeming qualities. I think not focusing on Baby's past, or potential motivations and playing up his villainy was all made with the intent to keep him unsympathetic.

It is one thing to have Goku proudly beat up the scum of the universe, but to have Goku beat up a victim who was wronged by the Saiyans of the old? It would be too dark for Dragon Ball, too subtle and mature for the age group and completely out of place in a story where subtlety is an alien beast. So to mitigate this and make sure the audience never actually felt bad for Baby, he was turned into the ultimate villain and his backstory was quietly swept to the side. He's still a great Dragon Ball villain but he could have been the best by a mile if the series was just a little more different.

The two arcs get an 8/10 together - there's about 2 inconsistencies and that subtracts from my score. But overall I view them as far superior to even the Cell and Buu arcs.
 

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Kenshi said:
Perhaps Piccolo couldn't deactivate the UDBs because he technically wasn't the original creator (Kami was), and he merely has Kami's essence?
Seems like a bit of a stretch to assume when him merging with Kami re-activated them, meaning the opposite should logically be true.

Pocket-Gog~ said:
For starters I'll start with a controversial opinion; I think the decision to de age Goku was the best choice for the show as a whole with what they were going with. For two reasons in fact, the first one would be that Goku as an adult was just too powerful to be wandering the universe - I believe this is actually stated by a GT staff member in an interview - so turning Goku back into a kid was the best choice for keeping the escalation low. The second would be that GT aimed to go back to the roots of Dragon Ball with a hunt for the dragon balls, kid Goku lead on naturally from there.
I'd agree in concept, as well as for the idea of him not being able to use Shunkan Ido (which would otherwise accomplish the mission in a matter of days at most). In terms of limiting his actual power though, this is something GT failed at seeing as how he didn't even need his SS3 form until Baby (against who it would've made no difference) and his base form surpassing Boo's peak by the time he fought Rild.

Though personally, I think the BSDB saga was at its best story wise with Imecka and it never really recovered after that. Though it was all good fun.
I'd say the Planet Lood segment could be a contender as it's arguably one of the most unique ideas for the series the arc presented. Taking on a space cult worshipping a giant statue that's actually a robot in disguise is not only something DB never did before or after, but presents the perfect combination of supernatural mystic fantasy with sci-fi that characterises the series as a whole.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
Kenshi said:
Perhaps Piccolo couldn't deactivate the UDBs because he technically wasn't the original creator (Kami was), and he merely has Kami's essence?
Seems like a bit of a stretch to assume when him merging with Kami re-activated them, meaning the opposite should logically be true.

He had Kami's essence which :shin confirmed when they faced each other in the 25th, but couldn't create any new DBs at all. Thus deficiency could be why he couldn't just deactivate the UDBs, although the more likely explanation would be that GT writers were just being fags like when they stated that #17 and #18 had sensible ki :punk

Anyways, giving any GT arc an 8 is something I heavily disagree with. A 3 or 4 is more like a rating, especially when Oob does better than Galu against Baby despite being weaker, Kibitoshit goes from nigh SPC or even Good Boo level to being threatened by Popo, Gohan goes SSJ with no in universe explanation and can't even fight base Galu, among other flaws that makes these two arcs inferior to even Cell imo, but to each his own. The BSDB arc is additionally one of the most sinfully boring things I've seen in my childhood, and I watched Digimon Frontier, Inuyasha and Gundam SEED lmao
 

Papasmurf

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I also heavily disagree with Galu turning to a child allowing the writers to actually pretend he was a character that could now be developed again. He didn't lose any of his abilities sans his Shunkan Idou, he didn't lose his memories (although he does act like a child during comic relief moments, but so did Z Galu whenever needles were in the vicinity and in other situations), and the mightiest enemies prior to Baby couldn't even make him turn SSJ2. He could've more than likely Dragon Fist'd Lood out of existence at SSJ2 or SSJ3, and the same could be said of all the M2 faggots. GT was a cash cow bleeding at the teets, and them trying to pretend an aging hero was fresh by reducing his height by 80 centimeters really didn't make that any less obvious. Even Masako Nozawa more than a few times let her 23rd/Z Galu voice slip out while Goku was a child, because by this point Galu WAS an adult - Toei wasn't fooling anybody.

What they really should've done was kill him off and make him proud that his sons' generation was now handling themselves fine as Z seemingly was building up to until Gohan got absorbed by Boo, or if they weren't gonna do that, they should've at least made him unable to turn Super Saiyan anymore without rage as a catalyst and worked up to him regaining SSJ2 and SSJ3 afterwards, while developing Trunks, Goten and Pan in the process. GT failed to deliver on all of these counts. Can't call it remotely close to good for those reasons.

There's a reason why even some ardent defenders of GT (that aren't :withheld COH) usually open up by saying it was below average by anime standards, because it really is that bad. Mind you when I was watching GT as it was airing on Toonami, some of my favorite shows were Megas XLR, Teen Titans, Inuyasha (albeit, before it went into filler/Naraku chasing hell), pre-Dartz Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Yu Yu Hakusho (which I'd only seen up to the middle of the Dark Tournament). Even then, I hated pretty much all of GT except the SSJ4 Galu vs. Oozaru Baby fight, and perhaps the last two episodes because they had a more "Z" feel to them.
 

Boo Brand Milk

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Pocket-Gog~ said:
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She raises a good point

Didn't like half those guys try to destroy the Earth?
 

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theallpowerfulpuipui said:
Pocket-Gog~ said:
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She raises a good point

Didn't like half those guys try to destroy the Earth?
Only Popo and Dende. They were the masterminds behind everything.
 

Pocket-Gog~

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Kenshi said:
I also heavily disagree with Galu turning to a child allowing the writers to actually pretend he was a character that could now be developed again. He didn't lose any of his abilities sans his Shunkan Idou, he didn't lose his memories (although he does act like a child during comic relief moments, but so did Z Galu whenever needles were in the vicinity and in other situations), and the mightiest enemies prior to Baby couldn't even make him turn SSJ2. He could've more than likely Dragon Fist'd Lood out of existence at SSJ2 or SSJ3, and the same could be said of all the M2 faggots.

I don't really think so. The pre Baby antagonists ironically enough were versatile enough that Galu couldn't really overpower them, Lood needed to be attacked from inside and outside at once. Rildo could turn into an entire planet full of metal and could easily outlast SSJ3 Galu. Its also a moot point talking about SSJ2 in GT considering the form is treated as if it doesn't exist in the show.

What they really should've done was kill him off and make him proud that his sons' generation was now handling themselves fine as Z seemingly was building up to until Gohan got absorbed by Boo, or if they weren't gonna do that, they should've at least made him unable to turn Super Saiyan anymore without rage as a catalyst and worked up to him regaining SSJ2 and SSJ3 afterwards, while developing Trunks, Goten and Pan in the process. GT failed to deliver on all of these counts. Can't call it remotely close to good for those reasons.

That ship had LONG since passed by the time Toriyama decided that Gohan was inadequate to be the main protagonist. GT didn't set any trends in how it treated Goku and the cast, that was established by Toriyama in the Buu arc.

There's a reason why even some ardent defenders of GT (that aren't :withheld COH) usually open up by saying it was below average by anime standards, because it really is that bad. Mind you when I was watching GT as it was airing on Toonami, some of my favorite shows were Megas XLR, Teen Titans, Inuyasha (albeit, before it went into filler/Naraku chasing hell), pre-Dartz Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Yu Yu Hakusho (which I'd only seen up to the middle of the Dark Tournament). Even then, I hated pretty much all of GT except the SSJ4 Galu vs. Oozaru Baby fight, and perhaps the last two episodes because they had a more "Z" feel to them.

I definitely agree that by other anime standards it is below average, but I also think that the bar got so low in the Cell and Buu arc that Baby arc had an easy time surpassing it.
 

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Kenshi said:
Anyways, giving any GT arc an 8 is something I heavily disagree with. A 3 or 4 is more like a rating, especially when Oob does better than Galu against Baby despite being weaker,
Baby made it pretty apparent he wanted to toy with Oob and test how strong Galu's student was (not to mention his status as a student would imply inferiority to Goku), so him using less effort makes sense. That, and it's fairly debatable how Oob compared to Goku's forms at this point in the arc.

Kibitoshit goes from nigh SPC or even Good Boo level to being threatened by Popo,
Dende would make a better example, considering Popo was shown capable of trading blows with SSJ Goten/Trunks for a short while in Z filler and it seemed as though the possession offered a boost in abilities to even those Baby didn't possess directly (considering Bra showed the ability to fly) as well as average humans being able to handle the gravity of Planet Vegeta/Tsufuru (though that's admittedly due to Toei simply forgetting that factor considering even cows and chickens were fine with it). Someone that filler already presented as being perhaps MSSJ tier being boosted to Kibitoshin's level isn't too farfetched, at least not compared to his master's boost.

Gohan goes SSJ with no in universe explanation and can't even fight base Galu
The former part's indeed a problem due to it relying on guidebooks for an explanation. The latter part of his performance, however, isn't a genuine flaw and more a case of missed opportunity when it came to Gohan's potential. Toei already presented their belief that Z Galu could outstrip Ultimate Gohan several times, so this is at most just the inevitable result of this mindset.

That's not to say the first two arcs of GT don't have significant flaws (Zunama being the poor man's Oolong, fully mechanical beings like the Mega Cannon Sigma having sensible Ki, the potential alternatives to Piccolo's sacrifice already discussed, etc.) but these powerscaling examples are far from the best cases in demonstrating the arc as a whole to be a poorly written mess beyond continuing flaws the Anime Boo Arc already brought to the table.

Pocket-Gog~ said:
That ship had LONG since passed by the time Toriyama decided that Gohan was inadequate to be the main protagonist. GT didn't set any trends in how it treated Goku and the cast, that was established by Toriyama in the Buu arc.
The end of Z set up Oob becoming Goku's successor though, not to mention Pan's role making it apparent the next generation concept hadn't been abandoned completely. Anime-wise, Toei also added Galu telling Goten and Trunks not to slack off and to be ready to defend the Earth if need be before leaving with Oob.

I definitely agree that by other anime standards it is below average, but I also think that the bar got so low in the Cell and Buu arc that Baby arc had an easy time surpassing it.
I wouldn't exactly say it got to that low a bar. Both arcs certainly had their fair share of plot holes, though they were far from irredeemable with both having some stand-out moments of character writing for the series, some interesting bits of theme exploration and a few unconventional routes for the series (eg. Mr. Satan going from a gag character to the MVP support player of the Boo Arc). That, and what flaws both arcs have were comparatively minor when stacked up to what all but a handful of other Shonen series devolve into by their finale.
 

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Captain Cadaver said:
The end of Z set up Oob becoming Goku's successor though, not to mention Pan's role making it apparent the next generation concept hadn't been abandoned completely. Anime-wise, Toei also added Galu telling Goten and Trunks not to slack off and to be ready to defend the Earth if need be before leaving with Oob.
When it concerns Uub I think its debatable, because there was also the element that Galu just wanted to keep on fighting someone with Kid Buu's potential for fun. I definitely think Pan is a missed opportunity (because I know she never gets SSJ) and its a shame because she actually has some build up as a strong fighter.

But besides Goku, Pan, Uub and Vegeta everyone else in the cast had essentially been retired. Retired by Toriyama himself too, no matter what Toei wanted to do they couldn't do much with most of the cast with the hand they got. Though the definitely could have done more with Pan and Uub - I personally think Uub should have come with them to find the USDB, but I'm getting ahead of myself.


I wouldn't exactly say it got to that low a bar. Both arcs certainly had their fair share of plot holes, though they were far from irredeemable with both having some stand-out moments of character writing for the series, some interesting bits of theme exploration and a few unconventional routes for the series (eg. Mr. Satan going from a gag character to the MVP support player of the Boo Arc). That, and what flaws both arcs have were comparatively minor when stacked up to what all but a handful of other Shonen series devolve into by their finale.
That's just how charming Toriyama was as a writer, that even at his worse he was still better than a ton of other series. But with the sheer amount of plot holes the cell arc had and the bad precedent the Buu arc set with fusion, egregious forms and keeping Goku as the MC - I think these two arcs have a lot to blame for how dragon ball the franchise turned out.
 

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Pocket-Gog~ said:
But with the sheer amount of plot holes the cell arc had
Aside from "muh time travel" being used as a constant way of changing the plot when necessary such as the #19/#20 retcon in the manga and Cell's timeline in general being a mess relying on big assumptions, I wouldn't say there are too many genuine plot holes in the Cell Arc. A large amount of contrivances, yes, but only one or two instances that could really be described as plot breaking.

and the bad precedent the Buu arc set with fusion, egregious forms and keeping Goku as the MC - I think these two arcs have a lot to blame for how dragon ball the franchise turned out.
Fusion at least came with the necessity of perfect synchronisation in power and movements as well as comparable height to make it apparent it wouldn't be a total deus ex machina that could be used by anyone. It only really became a problem with how the Potara was handled. As far as egregious forms go, only SS3 was that poorly implemented, with Boo's plethora of forms at least having some decent reason for existing, even if things such as Boo turning into Pure Boo rather than his Pure Evil self require a fair amount of inferences to explain (though I do agree his method of absorption was lazy compared to Cell's).
As for Goku's returning to the protagonist role, I wouldn't say it's as poorly done as many make it out to be. It would be the case if Goku directly saved the day, but he didn't actually do that. He needed to rely on the genki of all the Earthlings, Namekians and people in Other World, the support of Vegeta, Boo and Mr. Satan as well as (fitting for the grand finale of the manga) the power of the Dragon Balls. The climax of the Boo Arc was very much a team effort, only matched by the battle against Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc, and it's pretty apparent it wasn't considered in-universe to be Goku's total victory when he felt it necessary to seek out Boo's reincarnation for a proper rematch. There is the point of it going against the theme of the next generation taking charge, though that's only inferred rather than made undeniable when Goku only said they needed to be prepared for new threats and they were. If anything, I'd argue their failure due to their own hubris is a more interesting take than them finishing off Boo with it being a reminder that just having the power of Saiyan hybrids wasn't enough to save the day and them doing so would just be repeating the Cell Arc's closing message (though Gohan making the same mistake he did against Cell is definitely a problem).
 

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