Ultimate Gohan (Boo) >= Goku Ssj3 (Boo)

[kriss-]

Goku's true power is SSJ3, not SSJ2. So if Goku stay at SSJ2 and suppress himself down to SSJ2 to merge with Vegeta then Gohan can suppress himself down merge with Goku. Also if you think an SSJ and SSJ2 can merge, there's no reason a base like Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Goku can't merge, via your own reasoning. Your "supppression doesnt work" argument is purely made up.

Goku wouldn't use SSj3, as we proved above. Even if it came at the expense of sacrificing billions of lives.

No evidence suggests Ultimate Gohan could revert to his base form.

Goku couldn't fuse in his base form and suppress himself down to the levels of an individual from planet Metamor, or anybody in the afterlife, so no it's not made up.

He's telling him that he wants to see it with his own eyes. Vegeta has no control over whether Goku uses the form or not. He can't make him do anything.

Goku fought Kid Boo and Vegeta realized that Goku was trying to prolong the fight because he never had any intention to switch with Vegeta. This is made perfectly clear when Goku warns Vegeta to not killed when Vegeta tries to give him time to build his energy. Goku never planned on using Super Saiyan 2 because he would've gotten pulverized, and he never planned to switch with Vegeta because he knew Vegeta wouldn't have been strong enough to handle Kid Boo. All of this stuff is stated.

Goku: I better go all out.
Vegeta: Let me see SSj3 with my own eyes.
Goku: Is that alright?

So Goku is asking if it's alright for him to use SSj3.

Goku: You might not get a turn.

Because Vegeta might not get a turn.

It's clear as day.

Goku became cocky (stated) after Vegeta's admission to use SSj3 and dismissed his pride later, but not before.

Before the fight with Kid Boo, Goku tried to run away and think of an alternative means to defeat Boo without using SSj3. Even if billions of people died in the process.

He's reluctant about using SSj3 even before the fight, and it's completely related to what he tells Vegeta above.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah, nice job completely omitting the part where Goku assures him that it'll be over quickly. That was the point of the statement. He's not asking for his permission because he was going all-out regardless. You're trying to change the statement for your own convenience.

Also, it's outright stated that Goku never intended to give Vegeta a chance by Vegeta himself.

 

[kriss-]

If the 'entire universe' will go poof were actually relevant, than Goku playing rock paper scissors creates a paradox. Rendering your argument invalid. It was omitted for a very specific reason.

Vegeta thinks Goku is holding back to give him a turn. But they already agreed that that didn't matter in the statement you posted. Goku explains that the reason he hasn't finished him off yet is because he didn't have the time to gather Chi properly. Vegeta than says his famous 'you weren't thinking of me' line. But it's based on the false pretense of Vegeta assuming Goku was trying to give him a turn and was deliberately holding back, this surely wasn't the case.

This still doesn't mean that Goku didn't take Vegeta's feelings into accordance prior to the fight.

 

[Victorious]

Uhh Tosh, your argument is not consistent. The gap between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan can be the same as SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Teen Gohan pre Zeta sword. Goku can fuse with freakin Teen Gohan pre Zeta Sword or Ultimate Gohan, these are vastly different powers.

 

[kriss-]

Uhh Tosh, your argument is not consistent. The gap between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan can be the same as SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Teen Gohan pre Zeta sword. Goku can fuse with freakin Teen Gohan pre Zeta Sword or Ultimate Gohan, these are vastly different powers.

It is consistent.

As long as the level they are currently at is comparable, they can consider merging. Suppression is only viable after the two are close in battle power.

Goku Ssj CANNOT fuse with Piccolo.
Goku Ssj can fuse with Gohan SSj2.
Goku Ssj2 can fuse with Majin Vegeta SSj2.
Goku SSj2 can fuse with Z-Sword Gohan SSj2.
Goku SSj3 can fuse with Ultimate Gohan.

So because suppression is contradicted by Goku's statement, than the only logical determination is levels. Their levels have to be similar in power before being perfectly the same and doing the dance.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It was stated after the RPS game. You're changing the entire point of Goku's statement for your own convenience. If he says he's going to go all-out, it means he's fighting at his best. Why assume there's some hidden meaning there? Super Saiyan 3 is what's required to challenge Fat Boo and above. What you're suggesting is he'll fight a more powerful form of Boo with Super Saiyan 2 (even though that form can't do anything to a weaker Fat Boo) and risk getting killed for no apparent reason. Nice logic. Not.

If Goku fought Kid Boo as a Super Saiyan 2, he would've gotten rolled. Super Saiyan 2 is useless and is not Goku fighting with his all.

 

[kriss-]

It was stated after the RPS game. You're changing the entire point of Goku's statement for your own convenience. If he says he's going to go all-out, it means he's fighting at his best. Why assume there's some hidden meaning there? Super Saiyan 3 is what's required to challenge Fat Boo and above. What you're suggesting is he'll fight a more powerful form of Boo with Super Saiyan 2 (even though that form can't do anything to a weaker Fat Boo) and risk getting killed for no apparent reason. Nice logic. Not.

If Goku fought Kid Boo as a Super Saiyan 2, he would've gotten rolled. Super Saiyan 2 is useless and is not Goku fighting with his all.

Goku fought at his best against Majin Vegeta. Same principal.

It's clear as day that he didn't intend to use SSj3 without Vegeta's approval.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Super Saiyan 3 wasn't revealed yet, so it's not the same.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku would've gotten killed by Fat Boo, much less a more powerful Kid Boo. You have no point.

 

[kriss-]

Super Saiyan 3 wasn't revealed yet, so it's not the same.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku would've gotten killed by Fat Boo, much less a more powerful Kid Boo. You have no point.

In the larger context of the story, it is the same.

Goku wouldn't use SSj3 without Vegeta's approval, we've went over this already.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku said "maximum power" and it was obviously a lie because Super Saiyan 2 wasn't his maximum at all. In the larger context of the story, it's a lie. Remember when Goku thought he couldn't beat Fat Boo? Yes? Also a lie.

Your attempts to alter the meaning of what Goku said doesn't change the point. Super Saiyan 2 Goku would've been useless, and it's later revealed that he wanted to keep fighting Boo because he never wanted to risk Vegeta getting killed by him. Not much more to say. It's pretty straight-forward.

 

[Clearin]

6. Fusion [#BO2#FUS]
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Oh so it includes the afterlife as well.

Haha, this debunks your argument . Goku can Metamorian fuse with Vegeta, but we knowVegeta is not close to Goku and Gohan is not close to Goku either. So why later does Goku have to be close Ultimate Gohan? Makes no sense.

Vegeta and Goku were stated to be equal to each other in the Boo saga, after Vegeta turned Majin.

 

[Victorious]

Uhh Tosh, your argument is not consistent. The gap between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan can be the same as SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Teen Gohan pre Zeta sword. Goku can fuse with freakin Teen Gohan pre Zeta Sword or Ultimate Gohan, these are vastly different powers.

It is consistent.

As long as the level they are currently at is comparable, they can consider merging. Suppression is only viable after the two are close in battle power.

Goku Ssj CANNOT fuse with Piccolo.
Goku Ssj can fuse with Gohan SSj2.
Goku Ssj2 can fuse with Majin Vegeta SSj2.
Goku SSj2 can fuse with Z-Sword Gohan SSj2.
Goku SSj3 can fuse with Ultimate Gohan.

So because suppression is contradicted by Goku's statement, than the only logical determination is levels. Their levels have to be similar in power before being perfectly the same and doing the dance.

Ohh so now it's an arbitrarty "level they're currently at" and not their max levels that needs to be close? Good! Well i think Ultimate Gohan can just go down to some arbitrary level he chooses to be at and become close to and merge with SSJ3 Goku. His max level difference means very little, so long as it's closer than SSJ3 Goku and a Metamorian. That's the only rule you've shown.

 

[kriss-]

Goku said "maximum power" and it was obviously a lie because Super Saiyan 2 wasn't his maximum at all. In the larger context of the story, it's a lie. Remember when Goku thought he couldn't beat Fat Boo? Yes? Also a lie.

Your attempts to alter the meaning of what Goku said doesn't change the point. Super Saiyan 2 Goku would've been useless, and it's later revealed that he wanted to keep fighting Boo because he never wanted to risk Vegeta getting killed by him. Not much more to say. It's pretty straight-forward.

He didn't turn SSj3 until Vegeta instructed him to. Even than, he was adamant for stated reasons.

Goku could have instantly turned SSj3 against Kid Boo when he attacked the planet, but he didn't. He's shown the capability of doing so even when Boo immediately rushed him from a few feet away, why didn't he?

Oh right... Vegeta.

 

[kriss-]

Uhh Tosh, your argument is not consistent. The gap between SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan can be the same as SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta, or SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Teen Gohan pre Zeta sword. Goku can fuse with freakin Teen Gohan pre Zeta Sword or Ultimate Gohan, these are vastly different powers.

It is consistent.

As long as the level they are currently at is comparable, they can consider merging. Suppression is only viable after the two are close in battle power.

Goku Ssj CANNOT fuse with Piccolo.
Goku Ssj can fuse with Gohan SSj2.
Goku Ssj2 can fuse with Majin Vegeta SSj2.
Goku SSj2 can fuse with Z-Sword Gohan SSj2.
Goku SSj3 can fuse with Ultimate Gohan.

So because suppression is contradicted by Goku's statement, than the only logical determination is levels. Their levels have to be similar in power before being perfectly the same and doing the dance.

Ohh so now it's an arbitrarty "level they're currently at" and not their max levels that needs to be close? Good! Well i think Ultimate Gohan can just go down to some arbitrary level he chooses to be at and become close to and merge with SSJ3 Goku. His max level difference means very little, so long as it's closer than SSJ3 Goku and a Metamorian. That's the only rule you've shown.

Ohh so now it's an arbitrarty "level they're currently at" and not their max levels that needs to be close? Good! Well i think Ultimate Gohan can just go down to some arbitrary level he chooses to be at and become close to and merge with SSJ3 Goku. His max level difference means very little, so long as it's closer than SSJ3 Goku and a Metamorian. That's the only rule you've shown.

Suppression is debunked from the example Goku gave about being inable to do it in the other-world. Get? Got it? Good! Now that suppression is taken out of the equation.

Their battle powers need to be close before they are capable of considering fusion.

This is different than their battle powers being completely the same while performing fusion.

 

[Clearin]

The problem with this entire idea is that while there is an argument to be made for Gohan and Goku being close in power based off that one quote, as I said in the other thread that led you to create this, there is also a bigger argument to be made for Gohan being a shit ton stronger than Goku. The Gotenks stuff outweighs that one line

There's very few ways to make both things work together, unless you assume Gohan's "ultimate" is a form that he can turn off.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Again, Goku doesn't need Vegeta's blessing to turn Super Saiyan 3. He simply said "are you sure?" before making it clear that it'll be over before expected. The dialogue is not that serious judging by Goku's expression when replying to Vegeta. The cat was out of the bag at that point, so there was nothing to hide. Vegeta was already mad that he hid it from him once, so how or why would it be a good idea to continue to do the same thing that previously pissed him off?

Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 to fight Fat Boo, but realized it would've been a waste of time because he wouldn't have been able to divert Fat Boo's attention for long. That was why he ended up turning Super Saiyan 3. He didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 when Kid Boo did his Vanishing Ball because he thought it was too huge to deflect and thought escaping the planet was a better idea. Stated and shown.

I dunno why you think Vegeta's opinion means anything. It doesn't. Furthermore, Goku would've gotten beat down just as fast as Vegeta did had he only used Super Saiyan 2. He's not going to use a weak form against a more powerful form of a Boo (Fat Boo) he previously refused to fight as a Super Saiyan 2. Seriously.

 

[kriss-]

It was fun debating, but I think I'm done here. I'm going to try and incorporate some of this into my logic.

I don't think I can keep up with debating two guys forever.

 

[kriss-]

Again, Goku doesn't need Vegeta's blessing to turn Super Saiyan 3. He simply said "are you sure?" before making it clear that it'll be over before expected. The dialogue is not that serious judging by Goku's expression when replying to Vegeta. The cat was out of the bag at that point, so there was nothing to hide. Vegeta was already mad that he hid it from him once, so how or why would it be a good idea to continue to do the same thing that previously pissed him off?

Goku turned Super Saiyan 2 to fight Fat Boo, but realized it would've been a waste of time because he wouldn't have been able to divert Fat Boo's attention for long. That was why he ended up turning Super Saiyan 3. He didn't turn Super Saiyan 3 when Kid Boo did his Vanishing Ball because he thought it was too huge to deflect and thought escaping the planet was a better idea. Stated and shown.

I dunno why you think Vegeta's opinion means anything. It doesn't. Furthermore, Goku would've gotten beat down just as fast as Vegeta did had he only used Super Saiyan 2. He's not going to use a weak form against a more powerful form of a Boo (Fat Boo) he previously refused to fight as a Super Saiyan 2. Seriously.

Vegeta: Let me see,
Goku: Are you sure?

Nuff said.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I hate to be crude, but this quickly came to mind:

Me: "Yo, I'm going to fuck the shit outta you!"
Girl: "Let me see how good your dick game is."
Me: "You sure? You'll probably be unable to walk when I'm done!"

Let's examine the above: I already have it in my mind that I'm going to give it to her good, but she still wants to see the extent of my skill. Does this mean I never planned on fucking her really good right outta the gate? No. I'm just reassuring her to be careful about what she asks for because it can be a bit overwhelming for her to feel.

Apply the same logic to Goku and Vegeta and it makes perfect sense. You're looking for something that isn't there.

 

[Clearin]

The full quote is:
Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…”
Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…”

Goku is asking Vegeta if it's alright because Vegeta might not get a chance to fight, since Goku thought he could finish off Kid Boo as a Super Saiyan 3. He's not asking Vegeta if it's alright because it might hurt Vegeta's pride.